Is there really a solution?

[moromoro]

letss get one thing clear i agree that you have to be ready incase an attacker attacks you with a knife and you have to kept training if only these skills will give you the confidense and mentallity ready to deal with the situation.....

ONE THING MY ATTITUDE IS (UNLIKE MOST OF YOU WHO THINK THAT FACING A KNIFE IS A WALK IN THE PARK) THAT WHEN SOMEONE HAS A KNIFE AND YOUR UNARMED YOUR CHANCES ARE ALWAYS MINIMAL. HE HAS THE ADVANTAGE REGARDLESS OF YOUR TRAINING....


2 THINGS LOST_TORTOISE

1. when attacked by a knife attacker you do not know his skill level and cannot predict what he can do.........

2. IT IS ALWAYS VERY DIFFICULT TO FACE A BLADED WEAPON IN THESE SITUATIONS....THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES THAT YOU WILL NOT BE HURT OR EVEN INJURED SERIOUSLY...... CHANCES ARE YOU WILL BE HURT AND MUST EXPECT THIS.....


also LOST_TORTOISE iam willing to give up my 17years of FMA to learn you empty hands knife defense, since you think it is so easy and you can very confidently (from your post) guarantee that it is no problem to disarm an knife weilding attacker....

Lastly, if we all just used Anting Anting wouldn't this be a moot point

Also unless you can spaek our language and know our culture you cannot understand and will not have anting anting or oracion....dont mock these things even if you dont believe it....

 

[lost_tortoise]

Perhaps I did not make MY thoughts on facing a knife-wielding attacker clear. I would do everything I could to get the hell outta dodge! I mentioned briefly that I have been in plenty of BAD situations. I have been cut a few times and I DO NOT want to experience it again! It shut me down every time...my reactions were slower, shock fogged my "zone", the whole nine yards. I am lucky to have lived through those situations and I thank God for the blessings! If I encountered an attacker with a knife and I was empty handed, I would hope escape was an option. If not, I would hope that falling back on the skills I have acquired and practiced over and over would allow me to emerge alive....I would not act under the illusion that I would be unscathed.
Oh, and about the Anting Anting issue, you don't know me well enough yet to know what I believe....you may be surprised. I have a great deal of reverence for all things spiritual and I had no intention of mocking anyone's beliefs.
This is a stimulating discussion and I hope to experience more exciting discourse on this discussion board.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by moromoro
also LOST_TORTOISE iam willing to give up my 17years of FMA to learn you empty hands knife defense, since you think it is so easy and you can very confidently (from your post) guarantee that it is no problem to disarm an knife weilding attacker....

Umm ... no one (lost_tortoise or otherwise) has said anything about "guarantee that it is no problem to disarm an knife weilding attacker"

Not sure where you got that.

I think we're all in agreement that empty hand vs. knife (or any other weapon, for that matter) is a BAD situation.

I think LT's point was that, here in America, we face completely different issues than what you face where you live.

You said things earlier to the effect that "a knife is a girl's weapon" and many you know "laugh at the knife as a serious threat" because you just pull your longer weapon (i.e.: pinute, garrotte, etc.)

But here in America, 90% of the time that we'd be faced by a knife, we'd be empty handed. Therefore, in our country and culture, a knife is a very serious issue ... as you have just said above.

Also unless you can spaek our language and know our culture you cannot understand and will not have anting anting or oracion....dont mock these things even if you dont believe it....

Well, I won't speculate on whether LT was mocking or not. I can definitely see how you could get that impression since there is no body language or verbal inflection to read in this medium.

But you have a tendency to state things in very black & white terms (dogmatic is the term LT used and I think it fits). What you have said is, I'm sure, completely accurate in your environment. But you say it as if it were universal truths. It's not. So, I'm going to turn your statement around a little bit. If you don't understand our culture/environment, don't preach to us about how we should perceive it.

Please continue sharing your experiences with us. But there's no need to belittle people just because their experience differs from yours. Simply offer your perspective and let us learn what we can from it.

I'm not trying to attack you, moro, just trying to bring a little perspective to this discussion because it looks like it might be heading toward trouble.

Mike

 

[moromoro]

hi LT

pesilat please read LT last thread compared to his first one and also read my last thread,

QUOTE]You said things earlier to the effect that "a knife is a girl's weapon" and many you know "laugh at the knife as a serious threat" because you just pull your longer weapon (i.e.: pinute, garrotte, etc.)[/QUOTE]

one more thing can you imagine challenging someone with a knife and they have a stick, iam not talking about self defence iam talking about challenging and also self defence, i.e iam sure if your home was broken in to and the robber had a knife and you could use your garote you would wouldnt you im i right pesilat?? Many of the GM i have spoken to will laugh if you challenge them with a knife and they use their garrote.... they also laugh at completely knife based arts but in all due respect these men are hard eskrimadors thats why they laugh......

I'm not trying to attack you, moro, just trying to bring a little perspective to this discussion because it looks like it might be heading toward trouble.

pesilat
please read my 2 points on my last thread do you agree with this?? if you do wheres the trouble......
i found it a little amusing how particularly you and most of the people on this thread seemed to this empty hands knife defense was easy and very posible, a knife attack in training is a heck of a lot different from real life.....


iam an eskrimador it has been in my family for 4 generations and i respect the fact that when someone has a knife you chances if you are empty hands are minimal.......and like you recently said it is bad news it sure as hell aint easy....



LT

Oh, and about the Anting Anting issue, you don't know me well enough yet to know what I believe....you may be surprised. I have a great deal of reverence for all things spiritual and I had no intention of mocking anyone's beliefs.

NONE TAKEN, to some of us these beliefs are important, i have recently been exposed in a learning capacity with the oracion, also some KULAM.......

Umm ... no one (lost_tortoise or otherwise) has said anything about "guarantee that it is no problem to disarm an knife weilding attacker"

Not sure where you got that.


from the very first post on this thread pesilat i have said that it was almost if not imposible for empty hands knife defense, now every other person has disagreed and said there was, some even angryly disagreed remember they all think that it is possible, now i respect the knife if you are empty handed, but i give it no respect if i have my garrote regardless of whos behind it. iam not trying to attack you also pesilat but i think that you have jump the gun here a bit this time, you dont have to agree with me your opinions are good and valid to some extent but not in facing every skill level of attacker iam sick of repeating myself,

but kept the good points comming when you critique have some good points about why not just critique for the sake of criticising this is a post about a solution for knife defense remeber!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by moromoro

one more thing can you imagine challenging someone with a knife and they have a stick, iam not talking about self defence iam talking about challenging and also self defence, i.e iam sure if your home was broken in to and the robber had a knife and you could use your garote you would wouldnt you im i right pesilat??

You're absolutely right. But "challenges" like you describe aren't at all common here in the States (to my knowledge anyway) ... and that's the precise point I'm trying to make. Your experience (and that of your instructors) is completely valid. But it doesn't invalidate our experiences here, either.

i found it a little amusing how particularly you and most of the people on this thread seemed to this empty hands knife defense was easy and very posible, a knife attack in training is a heck of a lot different from real life.....

Huh? I never said that empty hand knife defense was easy. Nor did anyone else. If so, could you cite a reference to the specific post?

Empty hand defenses against the knife are absolute last resort. If I'm going to die anyway (which is likely if I'm empty hand vs. knife), then I may as well die fighting. And, who knows, with a little luck I'll actually survive the encounter.

I've never seen anyone on this board claim that empty hand vs. knife was "easy".

from the very first post on this thread pesilat i have said that it was almost if not imposible for empty hands knife defense, now every other person has disagreed

No one disagreed with that point. People disagreed with how you said things ... not what you said

they all think that it is possible

Ahh ... but there's a huge difference between "possible" and "probable." Yes, it's "possible" to survive an empty hand vs. knife encounter. It's even "possible" to get away without getting cut. Is it "probable"? No.

I think many of us acknowledge that it's "possible" ... based on first or second had experience of it happening.

But I think all of us agree that it's not likely.

iam not trying to attack you also pesilat but i think that you have jump the gun here a bit this time, you dont have to agree with me your opinions are good and valid to some extent but not in facing every skill level of attacker iam sick of repeating myself,

Unfortunately, "repeating yourself" is exactly what's required out here in this medium.

In this medium, all we have is words. We have no vocal inflection or body language, much less physical contact, to help us explain things. Consequently, we often find ourselves repeating ourselves with slight twists trying to get our point across.

Conversations that, in person, would take about five minutes can take 500 posts out here because of this very difficulty.

It's a double edged sword. On the one hand, we're able to meet people from all over the world to share and learn. On the other, we spend a lot of time going round and round trying to explain ourselves adequately.

but kept the good points comming when you critique have some good points about why not just critique for the sake of criticising this is a post about a solution for knife defense remeber!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Absolutely Back on topic ...

I think, actually, that this specific thread has played itself out.

The overall consensus seems to be that there isn't really a solution. Our training in the area of empty hand vs. knife is purely intended to (hopefully) buy us enough time to get away or to get a weapon of our own.

Mike

 

[moromoro]

hi pesilat

Empty hand defenses against the knife are absolute last resort. If I'm going to die anyway (which is likely if I'm empty hand vs. knife), then I may as well die fighting. And, who knows, with a little luck I'll actually survive the encounter.

this is my view exactly might as well die trying and have that atttude......

You're absolutely right. But "challenges" like you describe aren't at all common here in the States (to my knowledge anyway) ... and that's the precise point I'm trying to make. Your experience (and that of your instructors) is completely valid. But it doesn't invalidate our experiences here, either.

of course challenges dont happen there i think this was how i said it hopefully after this post you can finally understand me....


every real experience against a knife has to be respected and we should all learn from these experiences this is how we get better knowing what works in real combat.......

thanks


terry

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by moromoro
olf course challenges dont happen there i think this was how i said it hopefully after this post you can finally understand me....

Yup. I think we're all on the same page now

every real experience against a knife has to be respected and we should all learn from these experiences this is how we get better knowing what works in real combat.......

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Mike

 

[redfive]

Please help me understand, Is it just your system that does not do that much knife fighting and empty hand defence, or is it that way in most of the Philippines. All of the instructors and Masters here in the States, Germany, Europe that I have met and trained with have all tought empty hand against knife and stick. They all seemed to have a lot of faith in facing a knife and being empty handed. They all learned there systems in the Philippines. Remy Presas got attacted a couple of times by muggers, here in the U.S. He did just fine granted his skill level was way above the average person, but any training is above the average attacker.
All of the instructors, treat it all as the same, whether you have a stick, knife or are empty handed.
I have faced a knife twice. I didnt get cut or stabbed, becouse of what I was tought. The first time I had my combat folder on me, but he came in to fast for me to draw it. So I had to go empty handed. the second time I had my folder and my gun on me. I still had to start off empty handed until I got time and distance to draw my gun. So unless you walk around with your sticks in your hand all the time, your going to have to face the knife empty handed at least for the moment. Most of all knife fight here in the states start from an ambush or from someone drawing it from a fight already in progress. There are know challanges or duel style fights. And the fact that all impact weapons are illigal in the states and bolos, means that if you where here you would either have to carry a knife or go to jail when they catch you walking through the mall with a garrotte. So you would be an escrimador with out sticks. This brings me back to my question for you. Do you all practice empty hand against knife. If its such a girly weapon then why does everyone seem to fear it empty handed.Becouse odds are when you face one you will be empty handed in the begining at least. O and just out of coriosity what do the masters in the Philippines think of westerners as far as stick fighting ability and all. I'm not trying to start anything, I just wonder what the perception is.

Your freind in the Combative Arts, Redfive.

Ps. My instructor talked very highly of the workings of Anting, Anting. You have a very rich culture.

 

[moromoro]

hi redfive,

no in my system we do alot of work on empty hands against knife and some garrote all are based on basic and advanced attacks..

All of the instructors and Masters here in the States, Germany, Europe that I have met and trained with have all tought empty hand against knife and stick. They all seemed to have a lot of faith in facing a knife and being empty handed.

i see your point i will try to explain myself, you see A ESKRIMADOR'S PRIMARY WEAPON is the GARROTE or also a host of other bladed weapons i.e PINUTI in a masters (GM's) (of the philippines) point of view it is ridiculous for someone with a knife to think they can attack him head on if he has his primary weapon with him, do you understand???? this is why they laugh at completely knife based systems,

All of the instructors, treat it all as the same, whether you have a stick, knife or are empty handed.

what do you mean by this, i dont really understand what you are saying............can you explain better......

one more thing many masters will show you alot of things which they may not actually do in a fight, they do this to try to systemise their training and gain students, once you have been training a while or have a great relationship with your GM then he will tell you.........
Also ask your instructor or yourself how would you handle an attack by another eskrima GM or master if he had a stick and you are empty handed, or if he had a knife and you or your instructor is empty handed.....

GM in the philippines always say that against someone with real skill with a weapon and you are empty handed your chances are always very slim............ofcourse they believe it is very very possible to disarm a knife weilding attacker with little skill but you are still at a disadvantege....... remeber it all comes down to skill of the attacker...

and just out of coriosity what do the masters in the Philippines think of westerners as far as stick fighting ability and all.

i know amy be this will stArt something here, i will say not much they see green, there are some good westerners though... you will always see westerners win competitions and many GM's will joke about this saying they let them win so they will come back so they can give us more money..........for this question look at the thread the term moro and thekuntawmans reply and also my reply.....

My instructor talked very highly of the workings of Anting, Anting. You have a very rich culture.

yes, many the vast majority people in the P.I still believe in oracion and anting anting, in my last trip on feb march this year i had a chance to learn these as well as kulam which i will be researching somemore....

p.s who is your instructor? what system do you do? i was just interested thats all


thanks

Terry

 

[redfive]

That clears a lot up for me. The way I originaly took your posts, was that the knife was not thought of that highly.Now things make sence. The reason I got hooked into the Filipino fighting arts is becouse of the knife work. Compared to what I had learned through other systems. My base system is Modern Arnis. My instructor was Anding De Leon. He tought ,what I guess is old Modern Arnis now. He tought it the way he learned it in the Philippines, under Remy. Which was great, becouse we learned a lot of the Traditional moves and alot about the culture. His brother is a very high ranking instructor in Doce Pares, under the Canetes. So he would sneek some of that into the training on the side, and his brother would come down to Texas and teach. Remy did not get along to well with the Canetes so Anding never mintioned Doce Pares to much. I then met a group that studied under Ernesto Presas, and started to study with them.
The Filipino training realy improved my Jujitsu training and rounded things off. I now study primarily with W. Hock Hochheim, which is more combat based, which is where my roots realy are. He teaches a lot of realistic stick and knife work.

thanks for the responce, Redfive

 

[moromoro]

no problem

 

[moromoro]

hi redfive

They all seemed to have a lot of faith in facing a knife and being empty handed.

can you please explain this, and i hope that they are not transfering this attitude to their students....
Facing a knife empty handed is dangerous business a number of things have to be taken in to account... A KNIFE IS VERY VERY SHARP AND CAN EASILY CUT YOU SEVERING AN ARTERY OR PUNCTURING YOUR ORGANS. EVEN IF YOU THINK OF YOURSELF AS BEING AN EXPERT YOU ARE STILL AT A GREAT DISADVANTAGE IN FACING A KNIFE EMPTY HANDED....
ALSO MANY INSTRUCTORS WILL TEACH YOU A VIARIETY OF DISARMS USUALLY DONE WITH A DULL WEAPON AND FEED WITH NO REAL INTENT.

All of the instructors, treat it all as the same, whether you have a stick, knife or are empty handed.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THIS??
You cannot treat facing someone with a stick a knife or empty handed the same way,

P.S EVEN IF YOU PRACTICE AT FULL SPEED EMPTY HAND KNIFE DEFENSE AND ARE SUCCESSFUL 100 OUT OF 100 WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO A REAL KNIFE ATTACK YOU WILL STILL BE THE ONE DISADVANTAGE if you are empty handed.......


THANKS

TERRY