ap Oweyn
Brown Belt
How would you do that? If the handgun wasn't invented in the United States, what percentage of handgunning is American?
is there any fighting or art that is distinctly american?
- Thread starter bribrius
- Start date
How would you do that? If the handgun wasn't invented in the United States, what percentage of handgunning is American?
To begin with, "distinctly American" would have to include a mix of sources and inspirations. Just like the ethnic and cultural roots of our society and populace. I mean, I for example, am a typical "white" American. That's to say an an Anglo-Teutonic-Scotts-Irish Gaulic Celtic native of the States with some posible jewish traces in there too. I have no doubt that my descendants will be even more diverse... they will most probably be part hispanic and black as well. So whatever makes us distinct as a nationality, part of comes out of that diversity. The same would be true of an "American" martial art. The only problem with that is that the Brits and a lot of the European nations are becoming equally diverse. So whatever "distinct art" anybody anywhere comes up with gets spread around the globe pretty quickly these days.
i would be willing to guess we make and have the most guns. And have used them the most.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Interesting point, kind of knocks American Indian tomahawk use right out of the ring because you just made me thing that to be distinctly American could not be older than 234 years old and indigenous to the United States of America. And attributed to the folks that came to colonize since many of the indigenous people of the United States identify themselves as independent from the USA; Cherokee Nation, Iroquois Nation, Apache Nation, etc.
And you are right; the typical America is pretty much a mixture of multiple cultures...so says the German, Irish, Scottish, English guy with a dash of Swedish who is married to a Chinese woman.
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Generally, any art that is not distinctly something else that was founded, codified and developed by people of a specific nation is classified as being of that nation in origin. The art in question may be a development of an art imported from elsewhere.
If I were to take my hapkido, karate, taekwondo, and kumdo and combine them into one art, found it, codify it, and develop it, then it would be classified as a US art, inspite of the obvious Korean and Japanese influences. This would be true even if I were to call it Dan-kwon-do, Daniel-kwan or use an entirely Korean term for the name.
That does not mean that I invented the techniques or that they were developed in the US. It only means that a US citizen in the US has put together a system based upon what he has learned.
Just as nobody calls taekwondo Japanese in spite of the influence of Shotokan. Nobody calls Tangsudo Japanese inspite of the even stronger influence of Shotokan.
Also, many arts simply are general arts with no national identity, but with national schools. All of Europe had fencing, but there are distinct schools: French school (which is what much of modern sport fencing is based upon), Italian school, and Spanish schools are all fencing and each is unique. Hungarian saber was also fencing and also distinct.
Likewise, people have wrestled since the dawn of time. Nobody claims to have invented wrestling. But different nations go about it in different ways. Frequently, there are different ways within nations.
Just my thoughts on the matter. Find what you like, train in it and be happy!
Daniel
If I were to take my hapkido, karate, taekwondo, and kumdo and combine them into one art, found it, codify it, and develop it, then it would be classified as a US art, inspite of the obvious Korean and Japanese influences. This would be true even if I were to call it Dan-kwon-do, Daniel-kwan or use an entirely Korean term for the name.
That does not mean that I invented the techniques or that they were developed in the US. It only means that a US citizen in the US has put together a system based upon what he has learned.
Just as nobody calls taekwondo Japanese in spite of the influence of Shotokan. Nobody calls Tangsudo Japanese inspite of the even stronger influence of Shotokan.
Also, many arts simply are general arts with no national identity, but with national schools. All of Europe had fencing, but there are distinct schools: French school (which is what much of modern sport fencing is based upon), Italian school, and Spanish schools are all fencing and each is unique. Hungarian saber was also fencing and also distinct.
Likewise, people have wrestled since the dawn of time. Nobody claims to have invented wrestling. But different nations go about it in different ways. Frequently, there are different ways within nations.
Just my thoughts on the matter. Find what you like, train in it and be happy!
Daniel
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
nothing was created, or exists, in a vacuum.
ap Oweyn
Brown Belt
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking too.
ap Oweyn
Brown Belt
And that's what makes handgunning American?
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
The concept of handgun shooting is a uniquely american tradition. Name one nation on the planet that has contributed more the technological development, training, tactics, and use of the handgun as the US.
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
As I mentioned, the firearm, in general, and handgun in particular is an egalitarian weapon. That is a fundamental key to what it says about American culture to American's.
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
It's quite easy, actually.
The modern combat handgun was invented in America. John Brownings 1911 has been the standard bearer for combat arms for 100 years.
Prior to that, the Colt revolver was the standard bearer.
The current Beretta's, Sigs, etc, are designed based along the lines of John Browning's other famous gun, the Browning Hi-Power.
The modern method of firearm shooting was developed by Col. Jeff Cooper, around the 1911.
Better than 95% of what the world knows about handgun shooting came from America, in some fashion or another.
Though currently the leading law enforcement sidearm is the GLOCK, which is an Austrian design, so many are intended for US Market that we have our factories to produce them, and the largests users of the GLOCK is the US.
The Fighting Handgun is an Authentically American martial art, clearly, no questions, hands down.
Gaius Julius Caesar
Black Belt
Many of the techniques and styles of close quarter handgun training come from Close Quarter battle training, yes many nations had some kind of close firearms techniques but it was the Brittish SAS who wrote the early books, so to speak.
Who originally trained Delta? the SAS and the US Secret Service.
And you know that Apllegate and Cooper were an influence on all of this.
Applegatye did research western gunfighters in developing his system for the OSS.
It's kind of a round about thing, much like martial arts.
Allthough much of the techniques in our Jujutsu system come from japanerse techniques, others are obviously Americanized or westernized variations or new tech. entirly.
I could just as easily call what we do American Jujutsu as the Brazillians can cal Gracie Ryu BJJ.
Combat arts and colture in our world is so global now.
Sure combat handgunning is more prevelent in the US but don't think the Brits, the Grmans ( A pistol happy Military) or the French dont have their techniques as well.
Gaius Julius Caesar
Black Belt
Yes and NO.
Many Zulus at Rourke's Drift had their brains blown out by British Officers and NCOs using the Webly revolver.
Many Calvery officers at Waterloo used pistols, yet had never set foot in America.
How about the Privateers durring Queen Anne's War, many later went on to become full on outlaw pirates, many of them used handguns.
Yes there are American Combat Handgun systems that can call themselves such but we did not invent everything either, and many ACHG systems do have elemints of European technique and visa versa as I know the SAS will crosstrain and pick up usefull stuff from us.
MA has alot of exchange in the modern world.
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
Cap and Ball muzzle loading muskets used at Waterloo have as much in common with the modern combat pistol as a bronze age sword has to do with a katana.
The first modern combat pistol were the single and double action revolvers developed in the US........specifically by Samuel Colt (American).
Colt was the innovator, of which the Webley was a subsequent adaptation of.
The two most prolific semi-auto firearms ever developed (and still as popular as when they were first made nearly 100 years ago) are the John Browning designs of the 1911 and Browning Hi-Power, the first double action high capacity 9mm, of which all subsequent double action high capacity 9mm are basically variations of.
The british example is interesting, as in the british military of the time the handgun was exclusively an elite officers weapon, which they purchased on their own.
Many armies of the world do not even issue their enlisted men handguns.
Finally 'Distinctly American' is not the same as 'Exclusively American'. If that were the standard, then Judo would not be 'Distinctly Japanese'.
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
Again, the standard of 'Distinctly American' (which handgunning most definitely is) does not have the bar set at 'Exclusively American' (which is where you've set it). The two are entirely different.
As for the SAS, they may have had classes for Delta and the Secret Service, they hardly established firearms shooting with the Secret Service.........the Secret Service predates the SAS by nearly a century, having been established on April 14, 1865 by order of the officer of the President of the United States, so they were employing handgun skills long before the SAS was in existence. Which is no slight to the SAS, but, instead, an acknowledgement that the Secret Service is far older established organization.
Again, the combat handgun is a uniquel American martial instrument and it's pursuit as skill at arms is far more established in American tradition than any other on the planet. Many militaries do not even arm their enlisted infantryman with sidearms, something every US military unit does as a standard of course.
Maybe every US infantry unit? I know I didn't have a side-arm. Neither did a lot of people in Iraq.
Also, as far as martial arts that are distinctly American, do we get to include South America?
