Is the EWTO finally getting a legit grappling game?

[geezer]

Just saw this on Youtube. Just a flashy promotional video, but what surprised me is that the EWTO, an organization that for years kept preaching that all the ground game you'd ever need was already in their system, now seems to be openly importing some legit grapplers to train their ground game. I see this as potentially a big move forward.

Are there any EWTO guys out there who know anything about this? Any other opinions?

 

[KPM]

Looks like good stuff! And I'll bet no one teases that guy about his name being "Karen"!

 

[geezer]

Looks like good stuff! And I'll bet no one teases that guy about his name being "Karen"!

...Yeah, probably just makes him tougher. Like in the Johhny Cash song, A Boy named Sue.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Always good to get quality instruction!

 

[anerlich]

My instructor has been bringing in John Will, now a fifth degree BJJ black belt, for seminars several times a year since 1998. He has also had a Persian wrestling coach who'd been wrestling since he was 4 teaching regular classes for several years. Our kwoon is a Machado Jiu Jitsu affiliate school. My instructor is a BJJ brown belt, I am a black belt.

Like most guys who have trained grappling for a while, I've been to over 60 seminars with high ranking BJJ black and coral belts and American wrestlers.

My opinion? They should have swallowed their pride and started doing this seriously twenty years ago instead of getting into the stupid mudslinging matches involving Kernspecht, Emin, and the Gracies. Interesting that they chose A Gene LeBell / Gokor student rather than a BJJ instructor, perhaps because of that history. Nothing wrong with that choice, though.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Good to see. A friend lent me Boztepe's "anti-grappling" DVD a while ago and it was ... highly questionable (to be polite about it). Looks like they're now getting exposed to some real grappling.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Looks awesome. I've never done BJJ but have a few friends around the blue belt level in it, and I've always thought it could complement WC/WC/VT quite well. As in, you could study both arts even simultaneously, and this would be far more preferable than trying to just add on some grappling in bits and pieces to your WT (though its still better than nothing). Sifu Chris Collins is someone who I think would be awesome to train under: he teaches both WT and BJJ as distinct arts and does not just "add on" grappling components to his WT.

 

[geezer]

Collins seems like a really accomplished martial artist who brings it all together... WT, Grappling, FMA and firearms training. That pretty much covers it.

One thing about an instructor who has broad experience is that he can really address transitioning from one area to another... like transitioning from weapons empty hand work, or from striking to grappling, stand-up to ground, etc. That's something that isn't covered when you learn the arts totally separately.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Yes, that's an excellent point I missed articulating above! Learning how two (or more) arts can flow from one to the other is something a teacher experienced in both could teach, rather than having to connect all those dots yourself.
If I was independently wealthy and could hypothetically train at length everyday, I would split my time between WT, Judo, and BJJ, but even then I would have to learn them separately unless I relocated. I suppose that's one thing I am envious of MMA guys for; there are tons of gyms out there combining Muay Thai or Boxing with BJJ in one place and often by the same teacher.

 

[wtxs]

...Yeah, probably just makes him tougher. Like in the Johhny Cash song, A Boy named Sue.

You are older than dirt (as I), never mind the song, likely more than half of the people here don't even know the name Johhny Cash.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You are older than dirt (as I), never mind the song, likely more than half of the people here don't even know the name Johhny Cash.

Even many of us who are not nearly as moldy as Geezer are likely to know that reference.

 

[Flying Crane]

In a scuba circle I used to run around with, I knew a man named Tiffany. He carried the biggest dive knife he could find and always dressed in combat boots. it was just part of his costume. True story.

 

[anerlich]

As in, you could study both arts even simultaneously, and this would be far more preferable than trying to just add on some grappling in bits and pieces to your WT (though its still better than nothing). Sifu Chris Collins is someone who I think would be awesome to train under: he teaches both WT and BJJ as distinct arts and does not just "add on" grappling components to his WT.

Having taught both WC and BJJ for a fair while, I agree wholeheartedly that they should be taught as distinct arts. No one should even think about mixing them up until they have a high level in both.

My biggest mistake in learning BJJ in the early days was trying to look at it through the lens of Wing Chun. It worked OK for the first year or so but it definitely got in the way after that. You have to empty your cup. There are (a few) useful analogies I can use to teach Jiu Jitsu to Wing Chun people, but not many.

One thing about an instructor who has broad experience is that he can really address transitioning from one area to another... like transitioning from weapons empty hand work, or from striking to grappling, stand-up to ground, etc. That's something that isn't covered when you learn the arts totally separately.

Really, integrating striking and grappling, and the other things, is so different from the individual disciplines that it really needs to be considered as a separate art of its own. All the best MMA schools I've been to teach kickboxing, Jiu Jitsu, and MMA (and boxing and wrestling if they have them) as separate disciplines in separate classes.

In general, the few people who do MMA exclusively tend to get schooled in a pure grappling encounter by those who train BJJ. And by specialist kickboxers in a kickboxing match. But under MMA rules the MMA guys almost always win.

I think the best thing someone skilled in multiple arts can do is to teach good counters, e.g, to give Wing Chun guys some basic strategies against a grappler and defenses against common grappling attacks, that they can learn quickly without having to sign up at a grappling school. As opposed to a pure WC guy trying to make up his own grappling counters.

 

[Steve]

Even many of us who are not nearly as moldy as Geezer are likely to know that reference.

I think you guys are underestimating the average age of people around here.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think you guys are underestimating the average age of people around here.

Are you saying there aren't many of us who aren't as moldy as Geezer?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Having taught both WC and BJJ for a fair while, I agree wholeheartedly that they should be taught as distinct arts. No one should even think about mixing them up until they have a high level in both.

My biggest mistake in learning BJJ in the early days was trying to look at it through the lens of Wing Chun. It worked OK for the first year or so but it definitely got in the way after that. You have to empty your cup. There are (a few) useful analogies I can use to teach Jiu Jitsu to Wing Chun people, but not many.



Really, integrating striking and grappling, and the other things, is so different from the individual disciplines that it really needs to be considered as a separate art of its own. All the best MMA schools I've been to teach kickboxing, Jiu Jitsu, and MMA (and boxing and wrestling if they have them) as separate disciplines in separate classes.

That's a good point. They are, in fact, distinct skill sets even within an art that integrates them (like NGA). I tend to focus on one or the other during a given class, and then occasionally have a class that integrates them. I would suppose someone teaching BJJ and WC to the same group could do the same. Have BJJ classes and WC classes, and occasionally have a class to work on transitions. Otherwise, you just teach the two, and good students will work out the integration themselves, when they are advanced enough.

In general, the few people who do MMA exclusively tend to get schooled in a pure grappling encounter by those who train BJJ. And by specialist kickboxers in a kickboxing match. But under MMA rules the MMA guys almost always win.

I think the best thing someone skilled in multiple arts can do is to teach good counters, e.g, to give Wing Chun guys some basic strategies against a grappler and defenses against common grappling attacks, that they can learn quickly without having to sign up at a grappling school. As opposed to a pure WC guy trying to make up his own grappling counters.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the best thing someone skilled in multiple arts can do is to teach good counters, e.g, to give Wing Chun guys some basic strategies against a grappler and defenses against common grappling attacks, that they can learn quickly without having to sign up at a grappling school. As opposed to a pure WC guy trying to make up his own grappling counters.

I forgot to reply to this part...

This is a great topic for a guest instructor or seminar. I imagine someone like you going to a WC-only school to teach a class once a quarter to introduce counters. The difficulty, of course, is that they'd be practicing those counters against people who aren't adept at the takedowns being countered. That approach might require that there be at least a couple of competent grapplers (at least at a few basic takedowns) at the school for them to practice against.

 

[geezer]

....I think the best thing someone skilled in multiple arts can do is to teach good counters, e.g, to give Wing Chun guys some basic strategies against a grappler and defenses against common grappling attacks, that they can learn quickly without having to sign up at a grappling school. As opposed to a pure WC guy trying to make up his own grappling counters.

^^^ I really agree with this. And that's what WC/VT/WT anti-grappling should be. A sort of self-defense course against common, low-level grappling attacks so you can avoid obvious errors and have a chance to escape and recover. Beyond that, to deal with real grappling, you have to train real grappling.

BTW my comment above about transitions was basically in agreement with what you said above and not to suggest blending separate arts. The "DTE" MMA guys I know also train their different arts separately with different coaches, but each knows enough about the other stuff to help with transitions and spot errors. Stuff like working with WC people and showing them where and how they are vulnerable and how to correct it. Or how you can transition from close range striking (like WC) to set up a throw, etc. Cross-training and having multiple coaches under one roof tends to encourage that kind of thing.

 

[bezzerk]

Does this mean that unless they also teach some grappling techniques at your school you should just go and take jiu jitsu lessons
additionally somewhere else?

I also feel uncomfortable with the thought that basically you must not go to the ground or you're meat.
Simply saying you simply must not go down and turn out your attacker before this can happen isn't very comforting.
What if for whatever reason it does happen?!

A system should strive the be complete and offer solutions for every thinkable scenario. Why does wing chun not automatically do this?
Did none of the old wing chun gurus every feel like ground defense might be important?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Does this mean that unless they also teach some grappling techniques at your school you should just go and take jiu jitsu lessons
additionally somewhere else?

I also feel uncomfortable with the thought that basically you must not go to the ground or you're meat.
Simply saying you simply must not go down and turn out your attacker before this can happen isn't very comforting.
What if for whatever reason it does happen?!

A system should strive the be complete and offer solutions for every thinkable scenario. Why does wing chun not automatically do this?
Did none of the old wing chun gurus every feel like ground defense might be important?

No system is complete. There's not enough time to teach everything through a single art, as most students won't commit the extreme amount of time that would take. Some (like my primary art) cover more ground at the cost of going less in-depth in some areas. Some (like BJJ) go into great depth in an area, at the cost of not doing much in other areas.