Is it practical

[Cryozombie]

to train with archaic weapons like the Kusarigama, or the Ono, or Naginata, or is training with these weapons soley a way to preserve the past.

What do you guys think?

 

[SAVAGE]

People who train with swords are not training with a practical weapon...no one has a sword handy...knives...that is a different kettle of fish!

 

[Cryozombie]

People who train with swords are not training with a practical weapon...no one has a sword handy.

Really? Gamble you life on that, would you?

 

[Cryozombie]

I would also like to point out that, in our art at least, the "practicality" of training with a sword extends to other, similar weapons. Ones which are fairly common and readily availible.

 

[Tarot]

People who train with swords are not training with a practical weapon...no one has a sword handy...

Hrrmmm tell that to the sword that I have.

 

[Cryozombie]

Hrrmmm tell that to the sword that I have.

Or the cop in our dojo that had a situation with some kids and a sword, or the austrailians who had to ban them due to the large amount of sword violence... or that guy in THIS thread... or the drunken Skinhead who took one off a wall at a party and swung it at ME a few years back...

And now that we are OFF TOPIC... back to my original question please...

 

[Tengu6]

First, in training with a sword you learn a lot of very important things. It improves your overall movement as well as teaches distance and timing in a life or death manner, and in a way that training without one will not.

I will bet that a lot of people in New Orleans would have loved to have been skilled with a katanaa while back.

You never know what situation you will be in, sure guns are nice to have but what about when the ammo runs out?

And yes, part of what we are doing is preserving the art, you nver know what skills our children or grandchildren or great grandchildren, etc. may need.

Ninjutsu is about adaptability, and the way to be adaptable is to understand what brought us to where we are today, and apply those skills in a way that applies to the current situation. But if you dont know how the problem was solved in the first place, how can you adapt?

Markk Bush

 

[Cryozombie]

First, in training with a sword you learn a lot of very important things. It improves your overall movement as well as teaches distance and timing in a life or death manner, and in a way that training without one will not.

Good post Markk, I agree with that, and I have no question about sword training at all... we got sidetracked into that... my question was more along the lines of other, stranger, more "exotic" weapons.

I do think you addressed some of that in your post.

 

[evenflow1121]

I think there is a practicality to everything, you dont know who is going to be carrying what in the middle of a dark ally, but it comes down to probability, what are the chances that you are going to get attacked with a sword or a naginata even, as opposed to a gun or knife, still it can happen.

 

[Tengu6]

Good post Markk, I agree with that, and I have no question about sword training at all... we got sidetracked into that... my question was more along the lines of other, stranger, more "exotic" weapons.

I do think you addressed some of that in your post.

Yup, I dont care how exotic the weapon, if it had a practical purpose then it was a solution to a problem at some point in history, and, from history we can know its effectiveness. Now, if we learn how it was a solution, we can apply that knowledge toward todays problems. Kind of a problem solving thing.

especialy some of the heavier weapons, we learn to move much more efficiently to manipulate the weight. Imagine the same movement but minus the 10 or 20 pound object. Devastating I think.

Also, Charles Daniel recently had Ed Martin make him some 8 pound Bokken to practice some Shinden Fudo Ryu stuff, he saysthe movements directly relate to throws......cant wait to see that stuff in July at Ed place.

Markk Bush

 

[bignick]

Yup, I dont care how exotic the weapon, if it had a practical purpose then it was a solution to a problem at some point in history, and, from history we can know its effectiveness. Now, if we learn how it was a solution, we can apply that knowledge toward todays problems. Kind of a problem solving thing.

especialy some of the heavier weapons, we learn to move much more efficiently to manipulate the weight. Imagine the same movement but minus the 10 or 20 pound object. Devastating I think.

Also, Charles Daniel recently had Ed Martin make him some 8 pound Bokken to practice some Shinden Fudo Ryu stuff, he saysthe movements directly relate to throws......cant wait to see that stuff in July at Ed place.

Markk Bush

If you look at aikido and jujutsu you can clearly see the relationship between the sword and the empty hand, perhaps more clear in aikido, but it's present to certain extents in jujutsu as well.

 

[MJS]

Markk certainly brings up some very good points! As another example, the same thing can be said about Modern Arnis. The stick and blade work is all interactive, meaning things can easily be translated from empty hand to weapon and weapon to empty hand.

Mike

 

[mrhnau]

Well, what -would- you consider a practical weapon? I'll rattle off a few

Shuriken - you always have some keys, some rocks or something similar. granted, its not bladed, but useful for distraction

sword/hanbo - umbrella, stick, broom, alot of general items can be translated

knife/tanto - lots of knives around and you can easily carry one w/out -too- much suspicion

Kasuri Fondo (sp) - lots of rope like objects around

What else would you consider really practical?

Like others have said, I'm of the opinion that learning more exotic weapons have their merits. For me, even if its not practical it at least gives you an idea of the breadth of the art and alot of the techniques are easily transferable from weapon to empty hand. As far as the training being practical on its own merits, I kind of doubt it. Won't find analogies for some of the more exotic weapons laying around frequently.

Personally, our group does not do alot of the more exotic weapons. However, I am looking forward to trying out the Kyoketsu Shoge at some point in the near future

 

[Kreth]

Training with exotic classical weapons is most definitely practical. Train outside occasionally with a sword, bo, or kusari fundo, and note how polite your neighbors become... :uhyeah:

 

[Bigshadow]

to train with archaic weapons like the Kusarigama, or the Ono, or Naginata, or is training with these weapons soley a way to preserve the past.

What do you guys think?

It seems to me that the naginata and yari are bladed bo. No? So wouldn't the training be similar?

 

[Bigshadow]

to train with archaic weapons like the Kusarigama, or the Ono, or Naginata, or is training with these weapons soley a way to preserve the past.

What do you guys think?

We have worked with the Kusari Fundo with Jack Hoban, but for the most part it has been the hanbo, bo, daisho, knife, and pistol. I would like to work with more flexible weapons such as the kusarigama and the Kyoketsu Shoge.

I do believe that flexible weapons requires some good movement before one can use them effectively.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I like using a t-shirt as a flexible weapon. Stick one hand through the neck opening and out one of the arms, wrap a little and you're ready to rock and roll. Take a look at Marc Halleck's Panantukan Silat Combatives videos and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Flying Crane]

It seems to me that the naginata and yari are bladed bo. No? So wouldn't the training be similar?

I don't train the Japanese arts and weapons, but rather the Chinese, including the staff and spear.

While there can be similarities between staff and spear technique, it seems to me that they are definitely different animals. Having a sharp blade at the end creates different possibilities and limitations.

I know some staff work that mostly thrusts and even "slashes" with the end of the staff, and seems similar to spear. I believe these particular staff techniques may even be modified spear techniques, but my experience with the spear itself leads me to believe it is still quite different.

However, I can definitely see how experience with these weapons can have a useful translation in the modern world. A broomhandle could definitely be put to good use with both staff and spear techniques. Dao (Broadsword) technique could be applied as strikes instead of slashes, with a shorter stick or broken broom handle. Thrusting knife techniques could be applied with a pen or pencil. Use your imagination and you could come up with many more.

 

[bencole]

People who train with swords are not training with a practical weapon...no one has a sword handy...knives...that is a different kettle of fish!

Tell that to the 800,000 minority Tutsis and Hutu moderates in Rwanda in 1994, many of whom were hacked up with machetes.

-ben

 

[Bigshadow]

While there can be similarities between staff and spear technique, it seems to me that they are definitely different animals. Having a sharp blade at the end creates different possibilities and limitations.

Thanks. I understand that they each have their unique qualities and characteristics.