Is It Possible?

[Kaygee]

I know....Oh My God, another Kaygee post, right?

Seriously though....I don't want to catch a rash of crap for this, so I would appreciate an honest, open and MATURE discussion or I ask that you take your hateful comments elsewhere.

I was wondering........if someone like me knows all of the kicks that there are available in Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon do. If someone like me knows how to box and throw feints and combos, is it really worth spending all of this money at a dojang to achieve a belt that is black?

I know repetition is KEY! But I can do that repetition at home with a punching/kicking bag! Of course there the fact that correction from the master would be absent, but I haven't been corrected for doing a kick incorrectly for years. I am only corrected for minute, subtle mistakes in my forms, and, just like Bruce Lee, I believe that forms are a waste of time when it comes to preparing for a real street battle.

I have been thinking about it, and once you are a black belt, all you are doing are the same moves, but in a different pattern/form/hyung. Outside of that, nothing really changes. It all comes down to how long you have been doing it. But that gets me wondering, is there a difference as far as whether or not you are doing those kicks and techniques over and over again in a dojang paying over $100 a month or at home paying nothing?

Now I know it comes down to the "love" of martial arts. I know there are a lot of purists out there and I have nothing but the utmost respect for you! I mean, anyone that can stick with this stuff for a decade and never question it or cease to enjoy it, my hat goes off to you.

But I got myself into FANTASTIC shape by using a 25 lb kettlebell and a 20lb medicine ball and working out 3-4 times a week for 30-45 minutes. You should see my body now. And it took 60 days. I took martial arts for 2 1/2 years and never looked good. My flexibility has improved, but then again, I can do that at home. Stretching is easy! I can also do all of my kicks and hand techniques and such at home.

So I guess the bottom line is, I went to take martial arts to stay in shape and learn how to defend myself. Now that I pretty much have all of the criteria down
AND I KNOW THAT I DO NOT HAVE IT DOWN LIKE MOST BLACK BELTS OR MASTERS
do I not know enough where I can just practice over and over again at home and become efficient at self defense? I would have to say that looking forward, just learning more forms for the sake of attending a school and getting a black belt is not looking very appetizing to me. And I do know that this sort of thing isn't for everyone, but I have to question that if I work hard a few times a week and do what I know already over and over again, outside of learning new forms, what is the difference between attending a school or doing it at home?

Like Bruce Lee said (who never had a black belt himself, but no one can deny his skill) I fear not the man that has done 1,000 kicks 1 time, but the man that has done 1 kick 1,000 times.

I really, really, really hope that we can have an adult conversation about this.
Thank you!

 

[Sukerkin]

Without tuition and subtle correction by contact with others practising the same art, I guarantee your form will drift. If that's not important to you and you are not going to be claiming to be an expert in any particular style, then there is no problem with doing what you propose.

 

[Flying Crane]

well, here's some perspective...I train in a very traditional kung fu method, under a sifu who has been training since the early 1950s. He's old-school, grew up in Hong Kong and trained with some heavies in our particular system. We've got a good number of forms in our system (I actually believe that forms are a very useful tool for training some very useful skills, tho they need to be taught properly, understood properly, and practiced properly and that often doesn't happen) and our training tends to place a heavy focus on forms.

Sifu has said for a long time, if you really understand your basics, and if you have only learned the first of our forms, you've got PLENTY to be able to fight with. If you've learned our 2nd and 3rd forms, then you've got enough for a lifetime of training. You really do not need the dozen or so other forms that we have, not to mention the dozen or more weapons forms.

But this hinges on what I stated: that you REALLY understand the stuff. Most people don't, and it takes time and work and correction before you do. Sifu has also said for a long time, that the forms really just teach us what is possible with the basics, how the basics can be used. They help us develop our vision for what is possible. IF you had a vision of what is possible, then the basics are all you need. But most of us need some help with that, so we learn more of the forms and that helps us develop that vision of what is possible. Eventually, more forms will not help you. If you haven't developed the vision with the forms that you've already learned, then learning more forms won't get you there. If you HAVE developed the vision, then you have no need for more forms. The tool (the forms) has fulfilled its purpose.

Recently, Sifu said something very interesting. He said that we train for two reasons: self defense, and health (fitness). The practice of kung fu is for these two things. He then said that if you don't want to learn the complete system, you could study for one year with him and learn plenty to be able to fight with, plenty to develop fitness and health, and you would not need to learn any of the forms. It would be a stripped down version of the system, just focused on the fundamentals. Because that is what is really important.

So yeah, I think you could do it, provided that you understand your fundamentals and basic techniques very well, that you are doing them correctly and don't need ongoing correction, and that you have a vision of what is possible and what you can do with what you have. Are you there already? I dunno. Might you need some amount of training to get you there? I dunno. You need to answer these questions for yourself.

But yeah, it's possible. You don't need to train under someone for years and years, and you don't need a belt of any color.

 

[ballen0351]

I thought you just found a new place to train and you were happy?
Honestly if all you want and care about is getting a black belt just go buy one.

If you consider a blackbelt as the end of learning then there is no point in training at all. I see a black belt as the beginning of training. You get a black belt you finally know the basics of the style and now the real learning can start.

 

[Kaygee]

I thought you just found a new place to train and you were happy?
Honestly if all you want and care about is getting a black belt just go buy one.

If you consider a blackbelt as the end of learning then there is no point in training at all. I see a black belt as the beginning of training. You get a black belt you finally know the basics of the style and now the real learning can start.

LoL! What? The whole point of my post should point to the fact that I don't care about having a black belt!

 

[ballen0351]

LoL! What? The whole point of my post should point to the fact that I don't care about having a black belt!

I read it as I already know everything there is so why train

 

[Kaygee]

I read it as I already know everything there is so why train

Then you read only what you wanted to read.

 

[Flying Crane]

I read it as I already know everything there is so why train

that's one way of reading it, but I didn't read it that way. I read it as, "how much material is really necessary to accomplish the goal of having solid self defense skills?"

Personally I think it's an interesting question. Martial systems have sometimes grown into huge, cumbersome giants and I sometimes think some of them would be well served to be trimmed down a bit. The curriculum can become so big as to be unwieldy and ultimately dysfunctional and unuseful. Sometimes priorities in training can get screwed up and we start to think that "more is better" and I just don't believe that is always the case.

that's my take on it, anyways

 

[Guy Preston]

It all comes down to just 1 thing...

What do YOU want from training?

If you want to practice what you already know, you'll probably get pretty good at it, and be able to do your routine very well after a few weeks. But without someone to push you, you will probably stagnate... After you stagnate things will probably start to slip, and without someone to point this out you may not even notice.

Don't look at it as spending money on a black belt, you are spending money on tuition, coaching, training with others, etc, all valuable parts of the martial arts experience.

For me, it's the whole experience that I love in martial arts - if I did what you are suggesting I could have stopped learning when I was 10 years old and just practiced the Lau Gar kicks and punches I knew - bet I wouldn't be any good at it now though!!!

if you don't want to spend lots, find a cheaper class, I know you're limited where you are, but at least find some buddies you can train with rather than going it alone...

or, as you said the other day you loved the class you attended, why not go to it, give it your all, and just enjoy learning and training, forget the black belt crap, as I said in another of your threads, a black belt is just a reflection of your dedication - it only really has value to you personally, so it's down to you how valuable you think it is...

 

[Kaygee]

that's one way of reading it, but I didn't read it that way. I read it as, "how much material is really necessary to accomplish the goal of having solid self defense skills?"

Personally I think it's an interesting question. Martial systems have sometimes grown into huge, cumbersome giants and I sometimes think some of them would be well served to be trimmed down a bit. The curriculum can become so big as to be unwieldy and ultimately dysfunctional and unuseful. Sometimes priorities in training can get screwed up and we start to think that "more is better" and I just don't believe that is always the case.

that's my take on it, anyways

That's pretty damn close to the exact point I was trying to make. The rest of my post was a question. Do all of the very knowledgeable people on these forums think that this would be enough?

 

[ballen0351]

Then you read only what you wanted to read.

No its all in how you view it. You asked if you(generic you not you personally) know enough to be a black belt why keep going to a school. I think knowing enough for a black belt means you finally know the basics yet you have not really learned the art. Its like getting a college degree it basically means you know the basics of your field of study but are far from and expert. In law enforcemt for example a college degree in criminal just wont make you a cop.
If all you want is to be in shape then kettle bells and a fitness program will work better then a martial arts class. If all you want is to defend yourself go get a gun its faster and more effective in some cases.
I do both but I train because i enjoy it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I was wondering........if someone like me knows all of the kicks that there are available in Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon do. If someone like me knows how to box and throw feints and combos, is it really worth spending all of this money at a dojang to achieve a belt that is black?

Well, no. You can spend money on a school because you enjoy the training or because you are learning stuff you want to learn or because it helps you stay motivated or because you enjoy the social aspects. Spending the time and money and effort just to get a belt of a particular color would be silly.

You say that you started martial arts training to get in shape and to learn how to defend yourself. Obviously, if you have sufficient motivation you can work out and get in great shape at home for free. You should know better than anyone else whether you have that motivation.

With regards to self-defense ability, I think there's a definite limit to how much you can improve training strictly on your own. To make progress, you need training partners to drill or spar with and probably teachers to guide your development. Of course, if you're at a school where you don't do partner drills or sparring and where the teacher doesn't provide guidance that is relevant to self-defense then it is a valid question whether you are getting the benefits you are looking for.

 

[karatemom3]

I wish I had the motivation to really practice on my own. Do you have people who will seriously practice self defense with you?

 

[rframe]

Nothing changes?

In most styles I'm familiar with, a black belt is considered a knowledgeable beginner, not an expert. The shodan finally has a slight clue about how to move, evade, and attack....and now they have the foundation to begin to learn the real art of application and the subtleties of techniques which makes advancement a a lifelong journey.

If your view of going to a dojo is just an exercise in working toward a black belt, then I see no point. If you are going to train with others who share your affinity for a particular style, you enjoy their company, and you enjoy refining and polishing technique as a lifelong journey... then the belt is mostly irrelevant.

The journey does not end at black belt, in many ways that's just the starting point.

 

[Kaygee]

Nothing changes?

In most styles I'm familiar with, a black belt is considered a knowledgeable beginner, not an expert.

I agree! But after you obtain that black belt, you continue to perform the same techniques that you performed during your colored belt ranks, but in different patterns and forms. So, I can take what you are saying here as, an expert is someone that has performed the basic moves for years. Which is what I am trying to find out. If I already know all of the basic moves, wouldn't I be just as good as any 2nd or 3rd dan if I practiced on my own for the next 15 or twenty years? Sure, I won't know the forms, but the forms aren't going to help me in a fight anyway.

 

[Flying Crane]

Nothing changes?

In most styles I'm familiar with, a black belt is considered a knowledgeable beginner, not an expert. The shodan finally has a slight clue about how to move, evade, and attack....and now they have the foundation to begin to learn the real art of application and the subtleties of techniques which makes advancement a a lifelong journey.

If your view of going to a dojo is just an exercise in working toward a black belt, then I see no point. If you are going to train with others who share your affinity for a particular style, you enjoy their company, and you enjoy refining and polishing technique as a lifelong journey... then the belt is mostly irrelevant.

The journey does not end at black belt, in many ways that's just the starting point.

I guess I need to ask: do you feel that one is unable to defend himself prior to reaching the level of shodan?

 

[Guy Preston]

I agree! But after you obtain that black belt, you continue to perform the same techniques that you performed during your colored belt ranks, but in different patterns and forms. So, I can take what you are saying here as, an expert is someone that has performed the basic moves for years. Which is what I am trying to find out. If I already know all of the basic moves, wouldn't I be just as good as any 2nd or 3rd dan if I practiced on my own for the next 15 or twenty years? Sure, I won't know the forms, but the forms aren't going to help me in a fight anyway.

I think you have a wrong opinion of post black belt training...

If you just want to be tasty in a fight, buy a punch bag and hammer the hell out of it daily until you drop, and you'll be able to do the job...

Here however, you're speaking about martial arts - you won't understand training after black belt as with all due respect, you've never reached that level..

I'm coming from a Japanese MA perspective here, but I'd guess Korean's are similar.

It may look like you do the same stuff, but actually you are learning at a deeper level, tweaks are very important, etc..

You may find a technique you've always practiced one way (which is correct) is turned on its head by something new you are shown.

There is also the concept of 'kuden' to consider, often students are not shown certain things until certain stages, this may be a grade, may be based on dedication, may never be taught, etc..

From my experience, you learn the basics in the kyu grades, you learn the art in the Dan grades.

I think it was you who referenced Bruce Lee earlier, if you look at this closely however, Bruce had a foundation that he left to do his own thing, but he constantly had training partners, and sought out different instructors he could learn from, he didnt simply train the things he knew at home.

Another factor to consider, is that you learn a great deal through teaching, if you never get to that stage you're missing out on a great learning experience...

 

[ballen0351]

Also depends on the style and organization. There are several Kara and applications that we don't teach until after black belts so the learning does not stop at black belt

 

[ballen0351]

I guess I need to ask: do you feel that one is unable to defend himself prior to reaching the level of shodan?

You don't need Martial arts at all to defend yourself

 

[Kaygee]

Also depends on the style and organization. There are several Kara and applications that we don't teach until after black belts so the learning does not stop at black belt

I've seen them. They are the same moves, just used a little differently. And in all honesty, the just look "prettier", the actual application and practicality of them dissipates more and more the higher the rank that you go, in my opinion.

The basics kicks, punches, and other techniques look like they can really come in handy, but the forms after black belt just look a different way to apply those techniques in a non-practical way.

Are they difficult to pull off? ABSOLUTELY!!
Could I do it? NOPE!

But my goal was to learn self defense. I do not feel that I will get that by jumping around and looking smooth while doing a form.

I have been you tubing and watching the advanced forms, and while impressive, they have little to no practical use in self defense, from what I can see. They are the same moves I learned in my first year of training, they are just used in a different pattern or way. Now, that may be for some people, but I do not think it is for me. Some people look beyond the self defense part and see a lot more deeper into the art than I do, but I believe I may lack the vision to see that!