Is it OK to tase a 9 yr. old?

[GAB]

If I at 16 and female (105 pounds sopping wet) could restrain my deranged mother, aged 54 (215 pounds) at the time, I have little doubt an adult female LEO would have much trouble using her.... *ahem* inferior biological structure :ticked: to contain and control this 75 year old woman without the use of taser. I agree with Dan - backup was a viable alternative.

What about words??? Has the art of persuasive communication died such a horrible death amongst trigger-happy LEOs? I thought I left that behind when I left L.A. but it seems it is a supported and unfortunately growing social phenomenon.

I have several swords and an Irish temper. One of the five rules of conduct in my martial art is to never kil without cause. Is that cause up to me to define? Yewbetcha - hence all the other rules and virtues to guide my decision making process.

So - someone takes the life of or molests my daughter. Shall I behead the villain? Cut off his hands and pecker? Don't I have cause?

Just because you CAN do something isn't enough reason TO do it. This is just plain common sense.

Now - PLEASE do not continue to insult the LEO you are defending, the women on this board, and women all around the world who have successfully fought for themselves by engaging your sexist comments further.

SS

SS, You have really no idea what you are talking about. But your opinion is fine, but your way of going about it is supect to say the least...

You are off base and I will look forward to the continuation of this thread, if you do not cause it to be shut down...

If I even gripped your arm, as hard as you wanted to get away, not have it turn into an attack which would then be a felony on my LEO person. You would be brused for at least a week or two.

How does that lookin the news?

No don't say I could not do it, I can even at my tender age of 63. I am 6-2 220 work out at least 3 times a week or more. I am a carpenter by trade,
I could break your hand with my grip... OK

As you are struggling and not trying to fight you are at my mercy... Look at it like that and not some hyped up person who if they fought back just might end up in county general hospital...

Stick to the topic and quit pumping it up...Please...

Regards, Gary

 

[Rich Parsons]

Actually, Mr. Parsons, it's no more okay for a woman to break the law than a man. But exactly how much of a threat do you really think this little old lady was?? Isn't there a little room for decorum here? Is all black and white?

SheSulsa,

First, Please accept my apology, as I did not mean it as a man versus women issue here. What, I was trying to say was that the issue of the person being female or male should not be the issue at all. The sarcasm was not clear. The issue should have been the threat.

Second point is that when working security you learn that females can do just as much damage as males, and sometimes more, because your guard is down.

The third point is that, when I called the police on the ex-wife and her boyfriend showing up at my place, the police showed up. The officer felt threatened by me, the caller, because of my size alone. She did nto even want to hear that I had called, who was the resident, all she cared about was that she felt threatened, and instead of asking me to get into the back of her vehicle, she pulled her gun, and pointed it at me and then had me walk over to her and get frisked and cuffed. Two ridge hands to groin from behind is what they call frisking, in that township. What could I do. Nothing. The other officers that showed up later, and she uncuffed me acting guilty and all, and denied having treated me that way. Yet, my lawyer the other officers and the judge for the divorce case all said, you are a big boy and if she felt threatened, she could do what she felt was necessary to control the situation.

Hence, my sarcastic comments about this being an old women, and that if ti was an old man then it would have been ok. It is either ok based upon threat level or it is not, it does not depend upon the sex of the person.

Peace

:asian:

 

[Flatlander]

SS, You have really no idea what you are talking about. But your opinion is fine, but your way of going about it is supect to say the least...

You are off base and I will look forward to the continuation of this thread, if you do not cause it to be shut down...

If I even gripped your arm, as hard as you wanted to get away, not have it turn into an attack which would then be a felony on my LEO person. You would be brused for at least a week or two.

How does that lookin the news?

No don't say I could not do it, I can even at my tender age of 63. I am 6-2 220 work out at least 3 times a week or more. I am a carpenter by trade,
I could break your hand with my grip... OK

As you are struggling and not trying to fight you are at my mercy... Look at it like that and not some hyped up person who if they fought back just might end up in county general hospital...

Stick to the topic and quit pumping it up...Please...

Regards, Gary

So it's better to taze, then, for the personal safety of the civilian? Have you read the thread, are you aware of the topic here, Gary? How on earth does your post relate at all?

Have you any clue regarding use of force laws, Gary? This was an undue escalation of force. Period.

 

[GAB]

Flatlander, Of course I do..

My post in my opinion was right on. IMO what I have said all along is that the force of a taser was OK.

When I talked about the other force, as my over welming strength to control this older women would have left her and SS black and blue for weeks was my way of expanation. For you to come in and say Tasing was wrong puts you in the wrong...

The dept policy said it was OK and the women LEO felt along with her training it was OK.
You are a moderator and such should not come on so strong if I have done nothing wrong in my explanation. As to strength vs weekness...

If you look at my other posts you will see where I am coming from...

So what you are telling me in your post is, I am wrong because you are a moderator here, and I am just a participant, so my background and experience counts for nothing...Wrong...

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

I think you have a good point about the 'economy of motion' bit. It makes sense. The tazering probably is less harmful than any hand-to-hand tussling.

But. I have a serious issue with yr 'probably wouldn't have the strength' comment. Based upon what? I think you're making quite a leap there. You don't know the officer OR the lady involved, so why are you assuming the officer couldn't handle this old lady? Is it because the officer in this instance is a woman? I think perhaps you should reconsider this assumption.

I agree that LEO's don't get enough self-defence training through their work, but many take responsibilty for this themselves - see numerous examples on this board. There will be some that are quite competent and confident handling themselves in a confrontation, and some that are not.

Hi, I think it is clearly shown, the officer choose to use a taser..if mace would have been better maybe she would have chose that. Or her force meets the others force... Maybe granny was on pills that made her more combative????

Regarding, self-defense

Sure it depends on what department you are with and what position you are working. You have to be there to make these assumptions...

There are some really bad people out there and you are very wrong when getting involved in this type of thread. IMO.. Without knowledge you have an opinion, so does everone else, some are experts some are not...

Same as me telling some one who has a Professor postion that he should go back to school because I disagree with him...IMO His topic of expertise...

It reminds me of super Heavyweight Bo going into the Marine Corps and could not hack it for a couple of weeks and because of who he was got special treatment...DD is what is normal, ruins lives...

Regards, Gary

 

[Flatlander]

Flatlander, Of course I do..

My post in my opinion was right on. IMO what I have said all along is that the force of a taser was OK.

Ok, let's explore that. Is the Tazer intended as a defensive weapon or a compliance tool? Was the Officer in question under threat of personal safety?

When I talked about the other force, as my over welming strength to control this older women would have left her and SS black and blue for weeks was my way of expanation. For you to come in and say Tasing was wrong puts you in the wrong...

Sorry Gary, but I don't see how it relates, nor puts me in the wrong. It does put our views in opposition.

You are a moderator and such should not come on so strong if I have done nothing wrong in my explanation. As to strength vs weekness...

I am, but I'm not the Moderator of this forum. Ignore the Moderator title for now. I'm just a dude putting forth an argument.

So what you are telling me in your post is, I am wrong because you are a moderator here, and I am just a participant, so my background and experience counts for nothing...Wrong...

Regards, Gary

See above, I think you are wrong based on your argument, not because I'm a Moderator.

While on the topic though, this quote:

SS, You have really no idea what you are talking about. But your opinion is fine, but your way of going about it is supect to say the least...

was unneccesary, IMO.

 

[GAB]

Hi Flatlander,

It was in Department Policy...

She chose/chooses to use this tool. For defense or offense or for compliance, her choice, she is being paid to make decisions she did and the department stood behind her..Mace is another, baton is another, shooting is another.

It was pretty clear this went beyond the scope of just escorting granny to the door...

In whose opinion, the LEO who is/did handling this...Now it might get to court and it might get overturned and it might go to appeal and it might get overturned or it might go to the Supreme court and it might or might not stand...

That is how laws evolve in this land, I don't know about your country, but I do know about the law...Thank you...

Regards, Gary

 

[shesulsa]

Gary, I am aware of a few things.

1. Being that I am a woman and a civilian I need to watch out for idiots who have no respect for their physical advantage and cloak themselves with a badge and blue and thump regulation to justify their ignorance - like you are doing right now.

2. There really are men out there who can break my arm with their grip - I personally know a few of them myself. Your point? How does this fact apply to the topic of discussion at all, other than your apparent need to show me you can pee farther than I?

3. I am aware of the escalation of force.

4. I don't know everything.

What you apparently are unaware of is this:

1. I have a great deal of respect for law enforcement officers - though they are not infallible and there are, obviously, a few who probably need a little more seasoning.

2. There will always be someone who is a little feisty but not a lawbreaker - like old women who are sick and tired of being shoved around by men who present themselves much in the way you seem to present yourself on this thread.

3. The escalation of force cannot be black and white - it simply cannot in America. The moment it becomes so, we lose our way of life, our police force becomes corrupt nationwide and this will truly be the turning point for American Society and all our eastern bloc immigrants will feel right at home.

4. You don't know everything.

Don't insult me, because when you do, you only insult all the other law enforcment officers out there who strive very hard to be responsible with their authorization of force and power. Do you really need to do this to feel superior or smarter or something? I'm sure at the ripe young age of 75 you will probably be able to break my arm - did you need a brownie button for this or something? What exactly is your point here? Are you trying to scare me off this discussion?

Are we done with the preposterousness of this thread now? Can we get back on topic please?

 

[shesulsa]

SheSulsa,

First, Please accept my apology, as I did not mean it as a man versus women issue here. What, I was trying to say was that the issue of the person being female or male should not be the issue at all. The sarcasm was not clear. The issue should have been the threat.

Second point is that when working security you learn that females can do just as much damage as males, and sometimes more, because your guard is down.

The third point is that, when I called the police on the ex-wife and her boyfriend showing up at my place, the police showed up. The officer felt threatened by me, the caller, because of my size alone. She did nto even want to hear that I had called, who was the resident, all she cared about was that she felt threatened, and instead of asking me to get into the back of her vehicle, she pulled her gun, and pointed it at me and then had me walk over to her and get frisked and cuffed. Two ridge hands to groin from behind is what they call frisking, in that township. What could I do. Nothing. The other officers that showed up later, and she uncuffed me acting guilty and all, and denied having treated me that way. Yet, my lawyer the other officers and the judge for the divorce case all said, you are a big boy and if she felt threatened, she could do what she felt was necessary to control the situation.

Hence, my sarcastic comments about this being an old women, and that if ti was an old man then it would have been ok. It is either ok based upon threat level or it is not, it does not depend upon the sex of the person.

Peace

:asian:

Thanks, Mr. Parsons - and please accept my apology as well - it can be difficult to read sarcasm on these boards occasionally.

Ho harm, no foul.

And though I worked security for a very short period of time, I am quite aware that women are just as brutal as (if not more so sometimes than) men.

I think I understand your point better now. Thanks for clarifying!!

:asian:

SS

 

[Rich Parsons]

Thanks, Mr. Parsons - and please accept my apology as well - it can be difficult to read sarcasm on these boards occasionally.

Ho harm, no foul.

And though I worked security for a very short period of time, I am quite aware that women are just as brutal as (if not more so sometimes than) men.

I think I understand your point better now. Thanks for clarifying!!

:asian:

SS

SheSulsa,

Call me Rich, I do nto mind, unless you feel more comfortable with the formal address.

And No Harm No Foul

:asian:

 

[shesulsa]

Thanks, Rich. Call me Georgia. :asian:

 

[OULobo]

I would not think of judging them either unless I was there, neither should you on this one...IMO...

Please, being present is not a prerequisite for judgement. No judge or jury is present when behaviours that are illegal are presented in court. Why is this different. Officers like the rest of us are still held to the judgement of the public in either an indirect or direct manner.

Either they are professionals, entrusted and evaluated by superiors (who will NOT cover for a bad cop but hold them accountable because no one wants a bad cop ruining the rep of the rest NOR does the Chief want to be accused of not taking action ie losing his job).

That's how it should work, but that's not always how it goes, is it. We have seen the "blue wall" before and seen arrogant cheifs refuse to admit they are wrong.

If I even gripped your arm, as hard as you wanted to get away, not have it turn into an attack which would then be a felony on my LEO person. You would be brused for at least a week or two.

No don't say I could not do it, I can even at my tender age of 63. I am 6-2 220 work out at least 3 times a week or more. I am a carpenter by trade,
I could break your hand with my grip... OK

As you are struggling and not trying to fight you are at my mercy... Look at it like that and not some hyped up person who if they fought back just might end up in county general hospital...

You have got to be kidding. You don't know SS, her body construct or her abilities. You are either arrogant or making blanket statements and assumptions about women. This is the kind of attitude that local force here examines for in interviews so they know when to file the application in the circular file, and the type of attutude that makes it necessare for citizens to observe and judge police actions.

 

[GAB]

Hi Lobo, I will reverse this and say you have got to be kidding.

No I am not kidding she said she was 105 lbs.

I will stick by what I wrote...

You are making judgements you know nothing about...

Arrogant, I am not.

I am making a blanket statement, 105 vs my 220 and background... You are the one off base Lobo...

I've got more commendations then you are or your friend put together in age, so I will say what I feel..

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

Gary, I am aware of a few things.

1. Being that I am a woman and a civilian I need to watch out for idiots who have no respect for their physical advantage and cloak themselves with a badge and blue and thump regulation to justify their ignorance - like you are doing right now.

2. There really are men out there who can break my arm with their grip - I personally know a few of them myself. Your point? How does this fact apply to the topic of discussion at all, other than your apparent need to show me you can pee farther than I?

3. I am aware of the escalation of force.

4. I don't know everything.

What you apparently are unaware of is this:

1. I have a great deal of respect for law enforcement officers - though they are not infallible and there are, obviously, a few who probably need a little more seasoning.

2. There will always be someone who is a little feisty but not a lawbreaker - like old women who are sick and tired of being shoved around by men who present themselves much in the way you seem to present yourself on this thread.

3. The escalation of force cannot be black and white - it simply cannot in America. The moment it becomes so, we lose our way of life, our police force becomes corrupt nationwide and this will truly be the turning point for American Society and all our eastern bloc immigrants will feel right at home.

4. You don't know everything.

Don't insult me, because when you do, you only insult all the other law enforcment officers out there who strive very hard to be responsible with their authorization of force and power. Do you really need to do this to feel superior or smarter or something? I'm sure at the ripe young age of 75 you will probably be able to break my arm - did you need a brownie button for this or something? What exactly is your point here? Are you trying to scare me off this discussion?

Are we done with the preposterousness of this thread now? Can we get back on topic please?

SS,

I am not going to say much more so don't worry about this being preposterous.

Everything I said I stick by. I believe as much one way as you do the other.

I am in no contest I simply made a point like you did with your Mother or grandmother weighing xxx amount...

Different set of rules the LEO was playing with...

Lobo, in court the person does not judge until the evidence is presented,
your thoughts convice me you would be a great juror in Iraq but not in the US....

Regards, Gary

 

[shesulsa]

No I am not kidding she said she was 105 lbs.

Yeah - when I was 16, I was a bag of skin and bones. I've grown a tad since then.

You are making judgements you know nothing about...

Are you saying you have the market cornered on opinionating? This is a dichotomy of your previous statements.

Arrogant, I am not.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

I am making a blanket statement, 105 vs my 220 and background... You are the one off base Lobo...

Clearly, you're off base, because if you
go
back
and
read
the
post
again
you will find that was then and this is now.

Do you need to challenge a woman? If not, why do you continue to throw your supposed weight around?

I've got more commendations then you are or your friend put together in age, so I will say what I feel..

Yes, please continue to do so, because you, above all else, have made my point clearer than I ever could have - that there are people who abuse their commendations, physical stature, training, regulations and tools / weapons and who - even worse - don't give a damn.

I am done with you as you are a waste of my time and energy. Thank God you're retired.

Regards,

SS

 

[GAB]

SS, Thank you, my point also...Pretty sad situation, to resort to that.:flame:

No big deal. You are who you are and I am who I am. The last progression of your comments are the answer as far as I am concerned...

Last comment on the topic. LEO's are few and far between, if you look at the situations they are in and the everyday hostility (as here) you wonder why any of them would be there in the first place.

The story, Women LEO subdues Women with taser, why does that women have the right to have all this protection from outsiders who where not there and want to say things in her behalf, this is as common as the sun coming up daily. No biggie..

I feel given the information everyone else was given the LEO made her decision and she was correct in doing what she did...
You have your thoughts I have mine...

In my opinion SS went exactly where I knew she would, sad.
Lets see 2 moderators and one hysteric. Not bad for someone who has a different opinion...

Regards, Gary

 

[shesulsa]

I would expect nothing less from an ex-LAPD officer.

 

[GAB]

I would expect nothing less from an ex-LAPD officer.

SS Thank you.

Regards, Gary

 

[shesulsa]

Only someone like you would take that as a compliment.

 

[GAB]

Only someone like you would take that as a compliment.

SS, Yes I know, thank you...

Regards, Gary