Iran: almost 300 women arrested for "inadequate dress"
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Shuto
Purple Belt
Fear of women seems to go with the region. Maybe there's something in the water.
link
When the Number 40 bus arrived, the most curious thing happened. Husbands left heavily pregnant wives or spouses struggling with prams and pushchairs to fend for themselves as they and all other male passengers got on at the front of the bus.
Women moved towards the rear door to get on at the back.
When on the bus, I tried to buck the system, moving my way towards the driver but was pushed back towards the other women. These are what orthodox Jews call "modesty buses".
I wonder what Freud would say about all of this?
I've heard people justify these actions by claiming that provacative dress (in the eye of the beholder I guess) and intermingling of the sexes inhibits total concentration on more spiritual things. Perhaps, but I see it more as a sign of weakness if one desires to focus on spiritual things but cannot due to wordly distractions. Those distractions, by the way, go far beyond the attraction of the opposite sex. A better strategy IMO would be to strengthen ones will and power of concentration since the total eliminaton of worldly distractions is impractical if not impossible.
link
When the Number 40 bus arrived, the most curious thing happened. Husbands left heavily pregnant wives or spouses struggling with prams and pushchairs to fend for themselves as they and all other male passengers got on at the front of the bus.
Women moved towards the rear door to get on at the back.
When on the bus, I tried to buck the system, moving my way towards the driver but was pushed back towards the other women. These are what orthodox Jews call "modesty buses".
I wonder what Freud would say about all of this?
I've heard people justify these actions by claiming that provacative dress (in the eye of the beholder I guess) and intermingling of the sexes inhibits total concentration on more spiritual things. Perhaps, but I see it more as a sign of weakness if one desires to focus on spiritual things but cannot due to wordly distractions. Those distractions, by the way, go far beyond the attraction of the opposite sex. A better strategy IMO would be to strengthen ones will and power of concentration since the total eliminaton of worldly distractions is impractical if not impossible.
michaeledward
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One challenge we face, is the acceptance of different cultures. When does that difference change from something we should respect, to something we should fight against?
I remember listening to the Taliban in the mid and late 90's. They were represive toward women, sometimes violently so. But, I gave them a pass because they are from a different culture, with different beliefs. For too long, I allowed that cultural difference to prevent me from recognizing human rights abuses.
We see it also in the facial hair of observant Muslems. In our airports, I have seen many men with dark hair and facial hair pulled aside for the extra security sweep.
We see it also in the use of the hajib. More women in America are choosing to cover their heads with this traditional scarf. Personally, I react with diameteric feelings; first worry, am I in the presence of a terrorist, and second pride, that her confidence in the American melting pot is strong enough to permit this.
The article does not provide us quite enough information to make an informed opinion. Arresting some 300 women in a country of close to 70 million, may or may not be justified (how many protesters were arrested during the RNC in NYC?). Without a bit more context, we can't be certain.
Of course, if project our 'American Values' on to different cultures, we may very well see this as an outrage. I believe, however, that if all of the unique cultures in the world are 'Borged' into the Wisteria Lane culture (or Dynasty culture if you are of that age), it would make the world a less wonderful place.
The vast majority of those detained have been released. At this time, I see little cause for concern. Vigilance will remain appropriate.
I remember listening to the Taliban in the mid and late 90's. They were represive toward women, sometimes violently so. But, I gave them a pass because they are from a different culture, with different beliefs. For too long, I allowed that cultural difference to prevent me from recognizing human rights abuses.
We see it also in the facial hair of observant Muslems. In our airports, I have seen many men with dark hair and facial hair pulled aside for the extra security sweep.
We see it also in the use of the hajib. More women in America are choosing to cover their heads with this traditional scarf. Personally, I react with diameteric feelings; first worry, am I in the presence of a terrorist, and second pride, that her confidence in the American melting pot is strong enough to permit this.
The article does not provide us quite enough information to make an informed opinion. Arresting some 300 women in a country of close to 70 million, may or may not be justified (how many protesters were arrested during the RNC in NYC?). Without a bit more context, we can't be certain.
Of course, if project our 'American Values' on to different cultures, we may very well see this as an outrage. I believe, however, that if all of the unique cultures in the world are 'Borged' into the Wisteria Lane culture (or Dynasty culture if you are of that age), it would make the world a less wonderful place.
The vast majority of those detained have been released. At this time, I see little cause for concern. Vigilance will remain appropriate.
Shuto
Purple Belt
I struggle with that as well and I haven't been able to develop a satisfactory solution. For example, womens sufferage was forced upon the Afghans and Iraqis. I think the reason went beyond simple equality. I think there was a hope that the women would provide a less fundamental position. Regardless, I suspect that some, perhaps many, men were turned off by this afront to their traditional way of life and thus rejected the authority of the new govt.
Here's a little more info on the Iranian thing.
link
By contrast, look at our fashions of late: pants so low you can just about see the "garden," shirts so short and tight and necklines so low you wonder why wear them at all, words scrawled across the asses of young girls (young = 10) saying things like "sexy" or "cutie" or "Hot Stuff" ....
I'd be hard-pressed to hear western fashionistas chide Islamic dress code - there has to be some happiness between looking like a nun and looking like a ho.
Frankly, I don't have much respect for people who can't control their actions based on sexual urges and thoughts. We all have them. The consistent denial of these thoughts and urges is arguably what can create monsters - it hardly keeps thoughts pure. It is exercising one's morality upon one's own desires, reminding oneself of the nature of these desires and finding an appropriate, healthy outlet rather than oppressing everyone. I believe the old saying is, "That which you resist persists."
I'd be hard-pressed to hear western fashionistas chide Islamic dress code - there has to be some happiness between looking like a nun and looking like a ho.
Frankly, I don't have much respect for people who can't control their actions based on sexual urges and thoughts. We all have them. The consistent denial of these thoughts and urges is arguably what can create monsters - it hardly keeps thoughts pure. It is exercising one's morality upon one's own desires, reminding oneself of the nature of these desires and finding an appropriate, healthy outlet rather than oppressing everyone. I believe the old saying is, "That which you resist persists."
This has nothing to do with fear of women.
Sean
jdinca
Master Black Belt
This is only the tip of the iceberg. Remember that this is also a religion, in its strictest interpretation, that also considers the woman to be at fault if she's raped. That goes whether she's wearing hip huggers, or a burka.
I really don't care to take the time to understand a culture that treats women as property and as lesser human beings. That alone is enough for me. Fix that, and I'd be happy to listen to more.
I really don't care to take the time to understand a culture that treats women as property and as lesser human beings. That alone is enough for me. Fix that, and I'd be happy to listen to more.
michaeledward
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I would suggest that a closer look at that religion is appropriate.
Just as we should not characterize all versions of Christianity based on the teachings of Reverend Fred Phelps, or Cardinal Bernard Law, perhaps your understanding of Islam is incomplete.
I'm certain we can find scriptures in your holy book of choice that assigns women the status of chattal.
Blotan Hunka
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Big difference between "Religon" and a state ran by a "Religon".
IMO it's only a human rights violation when someone complains about the overall treatment of their sex/race/creed... :idunno:
Just because WE don't like how they treat their women isn't cause to interfere... their women have to stand up and say "HEY! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!"
Now in the case of the Taliban and their obvious physical abuse of their women (which THEY say is their RIGHT to do so)... again... the women have to complain. But then again we have to assess if they've been denied the right to complain (to us?... to anyone?) and ask for help.
During the 60's MLK and his followers rose up and complained and thus the movement and it's victory. If nobody stood behind Rosa Parks for her stance against segregation... would we have Civil Rights laws today? Probably so... because she was not the ONLY example of the unfairness of the segregation acts going on in the southern U.S. But she did with her act of refusing to give up her seat say in effect... "hey, enough is enough!"
Arab women will need to do the same, IMO ... if they're able. If they're not... :idunno: do WE have the right? A moral question to be sure.
Just because WE don't like how they treat their women isn't cause to interfere... their women have to stand up and say "HEY! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!"
Now in the case of the Taliban and their obvious physical abuse of their women (which THEY say is their RIGHT to do so)... again... the women have to complain. But then again we have to assess if they've been denied the right to complain (to us?... to anyone?) and ask for help.
During the 60's MLK and his followers rose up and complained and thus the movement and it's victory. If nobody stood behind Rosa Parks for her stance against segregation... would we have Civil Rights laws today? Probably so... because she was not the ONLY example of the unfairness of the segregation acts going on in the southern U.S. But she did with her act of refusing to give up her seat say in effect... "hey, enough is enough!"
Arab women will need to do the same, IMO ... if they're able. If they're not... :idunno: do WE have the right? A moral question to be sure.
Jdinca, that is simply a lie. I'm sure it's not your lie, just one that was fed to you. The Quran, the Sunnah of the Prophet Mohammed and the Hadith all agree that rape must be punished by death. In fact, even coerced sex is considered in the same light. When the Prophet's nephew Ali judged a woman accused of adultery he discovered that she had been starving and thirsty and had had sex with a man because that was the only way he would give her a bit of milk to drink. He ruled that the man was guilty of rape and that when she killed him his death was on his own hands. No crime for her. No blood price for the deceased.
By comparison my own Tribe's laws say that a rape victim must be put to death if she is raped in the city and doesn't make enough noise. The best she can hope for is to be forced to marry her rapist without the hope of divorce or to have the value of her dowry given to her father. She is spoiled goods or a whore. That's also the Law for Christians. Jesus never said there was anything wrong with it. Neither did the vicious murderer and Jew-hater Saul of Tarsus.
There's a difference between the Book (anyone's Book) and what human beings do. Up until very, very recently Christianity was, and in some cases is, just as bad if not worse. And in other times and places Islam was or is up to your standards.
If you would like to discuss the position of women in Judaism, Christianity and Islam I would love to. But an objective and fair look at the doctrines and the way the religions have been practiced throughout the world and over history will not be nearly so friendly to smug and self-satisfied dismissals as you believe.
By comparison my own Tribe's laws say that a rape victim must be put to death if she is raped in the city and doesn't make enough noise. The best she can hope for is to be forced to marry her rapist without the hope of divorce or to have the value of her dowry given to her father. She is spoiled goods or a whore. That's also the Law for Christians. Jesus never said there was anything wrong with it. Neither did the vicious murderer and Jew-hater Saul of Tarsus.
There's a difference between the Book (anyone's Book) and what human beings do. Up until very, very recently Christianity was, and in some cases is, just as bad if not worse. And in other times and places Islam was or is up to your standards.
If you would like to discuss the position of women in Judaism, Christianity and Islam I would love to. But an objective and fair look at the doctrines and the way the religions have been practiced throughout the world and over history will not be nearly so friendly to smug and self-satisfied dismissals as you believe.
Blotan Hunka
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Who cares about what religion did what over the course of history? what matters is people being raped, tortured, killed and abused NOW. In another thread were debating if a convict should be allowed to "go on with his life" after leaving prison. Here we are telling people to feel bad about what their religion did 100's of years ago.
ignorance is bliss
heretic888
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I know this is a bit off-topic, but....
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If Paul is your metric for anti-Semitism in the New Testament, then you are either blind or simply not looking. The epistles don't hold a candle to the blatant anti-Semitism of the gospels. Which shouldn't surprise, as the author of the epistles was a Jew while the evangelists were not.
Of course, a lot of this is based upon the speculation that there actually was a guy called "Jesus of Nazareth" in first century Judea and that the gospels are in any way indicative of his life or teachings. Eh, not so much.
You've constantly brought this point up before, tellner, but I must reiterate there isn't a shred of historical evidence to support it. Its all baseless supposition.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If Paul is your metric for anti-Semitism in the New Testament, then you are either blind or simply not looking. The epistles don't hold a candle to the blatant anti-Semitism of the gospels. Which shouldn't surprise, as the author of the epistles was a Jew while the evangelists were not.
Of course, a lot of this is based upon the speculation that there actually was a guy called "Jesus of Nazareth" in first century Judea and that the gospels are in any way indicative of his life or teachings. Eh, not so much.
You've constantly brought this point up before, tellner, but I must reiterate there isn't a shred of historical evidence to support it. Its all baseless supposition.
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
Having been to the Middle East, there are...intriguing??? differences in how each state interprets the law, and pressure forces on the individual states. Watch an islamic beauty pagaent sometime. Ms. Oman will come out in a belly-dancing outfit that is rockin sexy by any standards, with the ta-ta's barely contained in the top, and what amounts to a thong on under sheer pants. Then Ms. Iran will emerge, and you can't tell anything about her appearence through the black robes. Ms. Saudi Arabia comes out in something much more modest than Oman, but more form-fitting than Iran.
Saudi Arabia is under religious pressure from many factions to support the quran in society. As the house that guards the territories around many Islamic holy places, if they push it too far in the direction of liberal allowances, they're gonna get deposed and replaced by an extremist. Iran...well, whaddya want? It's a country run by their version of religious neo-cons. Is it right? Not in my eyes...women ought to have greater parity in society here in the States, much less in conservatively run religious nations.
I kinda wonder what the men do there for porn. Can't imagine there's a lot of excitement in a picture of a chick in a head-to-toe black potato sack. (yes...the blatant sexist disregard for many social institutions inherent in that sentence is intentional. And tongue-in-cheek). But I guess that, as long as men in power have an excuse to not take responsibility for their own sexual impulses, we will continue to see degradation of women in one form or another.
What will be interesting to see with the passage of time is of it gets recognized that the underlying causation for this yuckus is nearly identical to other forms of sexual victimization via projection and subjugation.
D.
Saudi Arabia is under religious pressure from many factions to support the quran in society. As the house that guards the territories around many Islamic holy places, if they push it too far in the direction of liberal allowances, they're gonna get deposed and replaced by an extremist. Iran...well, whaddya want? It's a country run by their version of religious neo-cons. Is it right? Not in my eyes...women ought to have greater parity in society here in the States, much less in conservatively run religious nations.
I kinda wonder what the men do there for porn. Can't imagine there's a lot of excitement in a picture of a chick in a head-to-toe black potato sack. (yes...the blatant sexist disregard for many social institutions inherent in that sentence is intentional. And tongue-in-cheek). But I guess that, as long as men in power have an excuse to not take responsibility for their own sexual impulses, we will continue to see degradation of women in one form or another.
What will be interesting to see with the passage of time is of it gets recognized that the underlying causation for this yuckus is nearly identical to other forms of sexual victimization via projection and subjugation.
D.
jdinca
Master Black Belt
So you're saying that women aren't treated as lesser people in many Muslim countries? The Quran may not say the a woman raped is responsible but there are many cases where the rape was disputed and the woman found "permiscuous" and then stoned to death, or faced some other severe punishment.
I'm sorry tellner, there is just way too much evidence showing just how poorly women are treated in traditional, conservative muslim countries. Although somewhat anecdotal, here are a couple of links to articles that talk about this very thing.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5676
http://www.vibrani.com/stoning.htm
I'm sorry tellner, there is just way too much evidence showing just how poorly women are treated in traditional, conservative muslim countries. Although somewhat anecdotal, here are a couple of links to articles that talk about this very thing.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5676
http://www.vibrani.com/stoning.htm
jdinca
Master Black Belt
Women are treated like **** and you're telling me it's our fault for not understanding the culture? You honestly think that there's some way to justify treating them like property, and that all we need to do is make an effort to understand?
And I'll say it again. Paul was a vicious, hateful self-promoting used car salesman. The fact that he also had a convert's zeal doesn't excuse him from anything. Circumcision? Follow G-d's Law? Only if it makes other people feel better. Otherwise it's do what Paul says. Jew-hatred? You betcha. Let's talk about the "synagogues of Satan". It's a wonder James wasn't completely expunged from the canonical Bible.
And he isn't the worst the Church has offered up over the centuries to the horror of the world. Leaving aside their internecine atrocities the attitude of, say, the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church towards anyone who didn't practice their particular brand of Christianity has always been "Comply or die." And if you're a Jew, a Muslim or a Pagan you didn't always get the first option. According to Papal Bull spoken ex cathedra and which is therefore binding on all Catholics for all time the killing of a Jew or Muslim guarantees Paradise and the remission of all sins. In fact it was only Pope John XXIII who removed the line calling down "G-d's curse upon the perfidious Jew" from the liturgy and who ended the ritual yearly humiliation of Rome's Chief Rabbi at the hands of the Pope. Like Mohammed Luther loved the Jews right up until the point where it was clear that they wanted to remain Jews and not convert. Then it was time for fire and sword.
I could go on from the Albigensians, the Waldenses, the Hugenots, the incalculable atrocities of the conquest of the New World, the Opium Wars, North American slavery (much worse than the Muslim variety - cf. Islam's Black Slaves), the traditional Christian treatment of women, the Klan and on and on and on.
Christianity has no right whatsoever to hold itself up as morally superior to any religion with exceptions like the Thuggee, Scientology and Jim Jones. It's no better or worse than Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or the worship of the Aesir. And like all of them it's a few laps behind the Buddhists and Bahais overall. In all fairness the Bahais have never really had a chance to oppress anyone.
The only reason it isn't worse now is that there are still secular forces and tendencies around. But look at the people who have the President's strings - Dobson, Kennedy, Reed, Falwell, La Haye, Haggard until it turned out that he was a closeted bottom and a tweaker, the Dispensationalists, Dominionists, Reconstructionists, Millenialists and the rest of that vile crew of theo-fascist whack jobs. They're every bit as bad as Bin Laden and Iwannajihad. Just as extreme, just as murderous, just as evil towards women if not more so.
As for the idea that we should concentrate on who is killing whom, let's consider it. By the time we had finished moving into Afghanistan we had killed - by our own official estimates - at least ten times as many as had been killed in the embassy bombings, the Cole and the 9/11 attacks. The numbers haven't exactly gone down since. The war in Iraq which was entirely our own making conservatively killed about a quarter million Iraqis from the end of Gulf I to the beginning of Chimpy's Great Adventure. Since then the best estimates we have are 100,000 refugees a month and upwards of half a million dead civilians. That doesn't include the disappeared, those kidnapped and tortured to death by US troops or the Iraqi government, the deaths that will certainly come as the Iraqi Civil War drags on and the thousands tortured, raped and humiliated as part of our new human rights policy.
Do I love the jihadis, the Iranian government or the rest of the mullah ****ers? No. They would kill me for being a Jew and for being a Sufi. But there is an ocean of innocent blood on my country's hands, and the fundamentalists here would kill me for being a Sufi. While they wouldn't necessarily kill me for being a Jew the Dispensationalist et al doctrine is that the Jews have to be shipped off to Israel to be killed by Arabs so that Jesus will be allowed to come back. Presumably he'll run into the Mahdi while the Hidden Twelfth Imam is crawling out of his well.
Whichever brand of jingoistic racist clods wins I die. My only hope is that the lights of reason and progress will not be completely extinguished by the Marching Morons.
And he isn't the worst the Church has offered up over the centuries to the horror of the world. Leaving aside their internecine atrocities the attitude of, say, the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church towards anyone who didn't practice their particular brand of Christianity has always been "Comply or die." And if you're a Jew, a Muslim or a Pagan you didn't always get the first option. According to Papal Bull spoken ex cathedra and which is therefore binding on all Catholics for all time the killing of a Jew or Muslim guarantees Paradise and the remission of all sins. In fact it was only Pope John XXIII who removed the line calling down "G-d's curse upon the perfidious Jew" from the liturgy and who ended the ritual yearly humiliation of Rome's Chief Rabbi at the hands of the Pope. Like Mohammed Luther loved the Jews right up until the point where it was clear that they wanted to remain Jews and not convert. Then it was time for fire and sword.
I could go on from the Albigensians, the Waldenses, the Hugenots, the incalculable atrocities of the conquest of the New World, the Opium Wars, North American slavery (much worse than the Muslim variety - cf. Islam's Black Slaves), the traditional Christian treatment of women, the Klan and on and on and on.
Christianity has no right whatsoever to hold itself up as morally superior to any religion with exceptions like the Thuggee, Scientology and Jim Jones. It's no better or worse than Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or the worship of the Aesir. And like all of them it's a few laps behind the Buddhists and Bahais overall. In all fairness the Bahais have never really had a chance to oppress anyone.
The only reason it isn't worse now is that there are still secular forces and tendencies around. But look at the people who have the President's strings - Dobson, Kennedy, Reed, Falwell, La Haye, Haggard until it turned out that he was a closeted bottom and a tweaker, the Dispensationalists, Dominionists, Reconstructionists, Millenialists and the rest of that vile crew of theo-fascist whack jobs. They're every bit as bad as Bin Laden and Iwannajihad. Just as extreme, just as murderous, just as evil towards women if not more so.
As for the idea that we should concentrate on who is killing whom, let's consider it. By the time we had finished moving into Afghanistan we had killed - by our own official estimates - at least ten times as many as had been killed in the embassy bombings, the Cole and the 9/11 attacks. The numbers haven't exactly gone down since. The war in Iraq which was entirely our own making conservatively killed about a quarter million Iraqis from the end of Gulf I to the beginning of Chimpy's Great Adventure. Since then the best estimates we have are 100,000 refugees a month and upwards of half a million dead civilians. That doesn't include the disappeared, those kidnapped and tortured to death by US troops or the Iraqi government, the deaths that will certainly come as the Iraqi Civil War drags on and the thousands tortured, raped and humiliated as part of our new human rights policy.
Do I love the jihadis, the Iranian government or the rest of the mullah ****ers? No. They would kill me for being a Jew and for being a Sufi. But there is an ocean of innocent blood on my country's hands, and the fundamentalists here would kill me for being a Sufi. While they wouldn't necessarily kill me for being a Jew the Dispensationalist et al doctrine is that the Jews have to be shipped off to Israel to be killed by Arabs so that Jesus will be allowed to come back. Presumably he'll run into the Mahdi while the Hidden Twelfth Imam is crawling out of his well.
Whichever brand of jingoistic racist clods wins I die. My only hope is that the lights of reason and progress will not be completely extinguished by the Marching Morons.
A touch 'combative', Tellner but eloquent and coherent once again :tup:.
I think your points about the rising tide of fundamentalism in the 'States are particularly telling, especially as it gathers around the centres of secular power :scared:.
I think your points about the rising tide of fundamentalism in the 'States are particularly telling, especially as it gathers around the centres of secular power :scared:.
You're right, Sukerkin. There's more anger there than I would like. But it's honest, acknowledged and from the heart. Whatcha gonna do? *sigh*
A lot of it stems from early experience as a member of a minority religion in a time and place with a lot of religious bigots. I learned all about Christian love and brotherhood at the end of a fist or the toe of a boot. It didn't leave too much room for romantic illusions. I did learn to fight and got interested in martial arts, so it wasn't a total waste of time. Prejudices? Yep. Fortunately they've grown and matured a bit so that most of time they're pointed at fundamentalists of most sorts and people who use G-d as an excuse to be mean nasty SOBs.
In time I realized that people have a tremendous capacity for nobility and at least as much for vicious stupidity. Hard to say how much is because of and how much in spite of whatever religion or philosophy they claim. There's a healthy dose of "In the whole world there's no group quite as cool as my group. In my group there's nobody quite as cool as me" in all human creations including religion. I truly believe that when most people pray in whatever manner their devotion takes the image of the Divine that they hold in their minds bears a strong resemblance to themselves.
No faith is immune to it. Jesus' Main Man denied him three times before he was even cold in the ground. Before the last pilgrimmage to Mecca the Prophet Mohammed said "Some day there will be nothing left of the Quran except calligraphy". On the other hand, there's a story in the Decameron about how Abraham, the Jew from Paris, became a Christian. It's hilarious and holds a very wry lesson.
A lot of it stems from early experience as a member of a minority religion in a time and place with a lot of religious bigots. I learned all about Christian love and brotherhood at the end of a fist or the toe of a boot. It didn't leave too much room for romantic illusions. I did learn to fight and got interested in martial arts, so it wasn't a total waste of time. Prejudices? Yep. Fortunately they've grown and matured a bit so that most of time they're pointed at fundamentalists of most sorts and people who use G-d as an excuse to be mean nasty SOBs.
In time I realized that people have a tremendous capacity for nobility and at least as much for vicious stupidity. Hard to say how much is because of and how much in spite of whatever religion or philosophy they claim. There's a healthy dose of "In the whole world there's no group quite as cool as my group. In my group there's nobody quite as cool as me" in all human creations including religion. I truly believe that when most people pray in whatever manner their devotion takes the image of the Divine that they hold in their minds bears a strong resemblance to themselves.
No faith is immune to it. Jesus' Main Man denied him three times before he was even cold in the ground. Before the last pilgrimmage to Mecca the Prophet Mohammed said "Some day there will be nothing left of the Quran except calligraphy". On the other hand, there's a story in the Decameron about how Abraham, the Jew from Paris, became a Christian. It's hilarious and holds a very wry lesson.
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