Internal Power of Martial Arts (Breathing Technique)

[Gerry Seymour]

While I agree with all you have said, I still don't believe many graduate students would wish to lend their name to such a study, much less get funding for it.

And I still point out that I am not agreeing with the OP, just stating science would never look askance at anyone saying they wished to conduct such a study. I also believe a preliminary would have as much chance of being funded these days as a more rigorous study.

Preliminaries typically require very little funding, which makes them easier to do - can often be done with time between other studies, and grad students are cheap.

 

[oftheherd1]

It would be much easier to do a PhD project on it though.

It might reduce the number of detractors, but likely not their vehement reaction against it. Amongst other thins needed to convince a committee, would be that the study would significantly add to human knowledge. If the committee starts out disbelieving, they would not likely think it would, and would no doubt have many other useful studies to recommend to the applicant.

There is a guy who received his PhD from one of the Universities where I live who did his study in support of the obsolete Expanding Earth hypothesis, so anything's possible.

It seems their are number of people with good credentials arguing for and against Expanding Earth theories, with studies for and against the two theories, that might not be such a difficult sell to a committee really.

The problem concerning Gi, there are no legitimate studies either way that I am aware of.

 

[oftheherd1]

Preliminaries typically require very little funding, which makes them easier to do - can often be done with time between other studies, and grad students are cheap.

Then I would wonder why none have been done. Could it be that the scientific community has so much disbelief in the concept that they see no reason to expend time and grad students on an impossibility? I don't know, but it just doesn't seem to be getting done.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Then I would wonder why none have been done. Could it be that the scientific community has so much disbelief in the concept that they see no reason to expend time and grad students on an impossibility? I don't know, but it just doesn't seem to be getting done.

Likely, any that have considered it haven't been able to find any evidence to suggest success in the study. Remember I said the allure would be the chance of presenting evidence that would be ground-breaking. If there's not much chance of that, there's not much chance of anyone taking the time to do the study. Basically, for the same reason nobody in chemistry is doing studies on converting led into gold via alchemy.

 

[oftheherd1]

Likely, any that have considered it haven't been able to find any evidence to suggest success in the study. Remember I said the allure would be the chance of presenting evidence that would be ground-breaking. If there's not much chance of that, there's not much chance of anyone taking the time to do the study. Basically, for the same reason nobody in chemistry is doing studies on converting led into gold via alchemy.

I think that is a different way of saying what I have been saying: nobody is going to be willing to fund such studies.

Defending differing reasons for willingness or non-willingness is a different matter, but does come into play as to if people are willing to fund or not willing to fund.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think that is a different way of saying what I have been saying: nobody is going to be willing to fund such studies.

Defending differing reasons for willingness or non-willingness is a different matter, but does come into play as to if people are willing to fund or not willing to fund.

My point was that funding is probably not the limitation for a preliminary study. They cost so little that funding can be had from fairly generic sources - they can be useful teaching exercises, even if the topic isn't likely to produce valuable results, and often further the cause of basic research by providing evidence contrary to conventional wisdom. Lack of interest by potential researchers would likely be the limiting factor.

In the end, you're right. We're saying the same thing, just arguing over which point in the process becomes the obstacle.

 

[Ironbear24]

Why are people arguing with drop bear about the effectiveness of a "TMA"?

It is literally pointless. He is in the crowd of if it's not mma it's crap.

 

[drop bear]

Why are people arguing with drop bear about the effectiveness of a "TMA"?

It is literally pointless. He is in the crowd of if it's not mma it's crap.

 

[Ironbear24]

Oh you saw my post about punching that clown in that haunted house?

 

[Steve]

I'm not sure that generalizable to MA training.

It's the same then. If I convince you I'm an authority on something and tell you something you want to believe, you will figure out a way to believe it, On a larger scale, this is what happens in both MA and in politics. Everyone has a team.

I'm on the team that likes to limit the scope of claims to things we can demonstrate are true in an individual level. In fighting, there aren't very many ways to do this. Just like defining a learning objective, the key is to be specific and keep things measurable.

 

[Steve]

Why are people arguing with drop bear about the effectiveness of a "TMA"?

It is literally pointless. He is in the crowd of if it's not mma it's crap.

What's funny to me is that, in this thread, drop bear is defending this particular TMA.

 

[drop bear]

You can expect exactly as much evidence as you need before investing. Know that you are not the target market for Aikido, from what I see. You'd be focused on getting to combat effectiveness as quickly as reasonably possible, and no Aikido school I have visited seemed to have that speed as a goal. That said, most folks don't select for the most combat effectiveness - they select for a level of effectiveness they feel is achievable within their willingness

That is kind of a martial arts constant.

You get out what you put in. Unless the system doesn't deliver like say vibravision. And then you just loose money and time.

 

[Ironbear24]

What's funny to me is that, in this thread, drop bear is defending this particular TMA.

Sarcastically.

 

[drop bear]

Sarcastically.

I do everything sarcastically.

 

[senseiblackbelt]

I've always found breathing to be a vital part of my life.[/QUOTE
your funny. @Tez3

 

[RTKDCMB]

So why do you feel like its okay to deride it?

And in which comment do you feel I have derided the martial art (or any martial art for that matter)? I have made comments on specific claims in specific videos about how the effects seen occur without magic but i have said nothing about Silat in general or that martial art in particular.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If I convince you I'm an authority on something and tell you something you want to believe, you will figure out a way to believe it,

Not if he has the ability to think critically.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's the same then. If I convince you I'm an authority on something and tell you something you want to believe, you will figure out a way to believe it, On a larger scale, this is what happens in both MA and in politics. Everyone has a team.

I'm on the team that likes to limit the scope of claims to things we can demonstrate are true in an individual level. In fighting, there aren't very many ways to do this. Just like defining a learning objective, the key is to be specific and keep things measurable.

There is a strong tendency to rationalize our decisions after they are made, so I can see where you're coming from on this. I suppose it depends upon whether people bring their own natural skepticism or not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What's funny to me is that, in this thread, drop bear is defending this particular TMA.

Only to create a strawman argument of what he claims others have stated.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is kind of a martial arts constant.

You get out what you put in. Unless the system doesn't deliver like say vibravision. And then you just loose money and time.

True.

My point was that each person has their own pre-investment requirement of proof. This is part of how we find the right MA for us, individually. If your level of proof required is low, then the first one that looks like fun will probably do. If your level of proof required is high, you'll pass up those that can't show up-front evidence of effectiveness that meets that requirement. It's immaterial in both cases whether the art is highly effective or not. For the first person, they didn't care about effectiveness so much, so a lack of evidence isn't a big deal. For the second, it couldn't show enough evidence, so the level of actual effectiveness is irrelevant.

I'll use my own school as an example. If someone came to me and asked me to demonstrate the full effectiveness of the art, I can't. I don't have any students who are advanced enough to take the ukemi at that speed nor to demonstrate at that speed with any safety, and I won't operate at that speed with an unknown uke (the person requesting the demonstration, for instance). I could demonstrate some of the effectiveness, but I couldn't go anything close to full-speed. Maybe if the person asking was well-trained in something that gave me confidence in their control, judgment, and ukemi (BJJ and Judo come to mind). (Of course, then we'd probably just be in a mini-contest, and that'd be more about the fun of mixing it up, and would mostly show which does better at handling the other art, which isn't a useful method of analysis for potential self-defense.)

Now, put me at the school an hour away, on a day when they have their advanced students training, and I can pull one I know and ask him to attack hard. Then I can demonstrate with some force and speed. But not at my school. And I'd have no problem with someone deciding to pass up because of that. I started the art because of a demonstration by a senior instructor who just used the attendees (myself included, because he heard I had Judo background). I joined because of the effectiveness of what he did to me.