Innovative Wing Chun? A revolutionary new style...?

[fenglong]

Stumbled across this and it seems really fake, but maybe someone got personal insight into it?

http://www.usadojo.com/kata/viewfull.asp?bioid=6

http://www.innovativewingchun.com/

 

[fenglong]

Well I guess they just don't reveal enough to discuss and unfortunately that's what they seem to want.


[h=6]龍風
[/h][h=6]Hi, I got a question. I was wondering why there are no application videos or other kinds of videos providing at least a little bit of insight into IWC?
I am working on my own "innovative" martial arts and after all the researching and exchanging I have done, in my opinion it is rather disappointing and suspicious claiming a martial arts to be really effective yet not providing some videos with "obvious" info.[/h]Like · · January 28 at 7:55am ·

• • Innovative Wing Chun and Bare-Knuckle Boxing So you want me to provide you with videos. Would you like free lessons as well? How about I go to work and do your job? How pathetic it is when someone wont do the hard work and wants videos and online information, rather than just getting your *** over here and training hard! I am very suspicious of you sir!5 hours ago · Like
    
    
    

 

[mook jong man]

Just looking at the video of the dummy work there are a couple of things that bother me .

It suffers from this thing you always see on the internet of people thinking they have to go a million miles per hour and smash the crap out of the dummy arms.
Speed can be used to cover a multitude of sins.

Also his body is not unified at the waist as he moves , there is a lot of rapid arm movement but not much of his body weight is being projected into the dummy itself as is evidenced by how little the dummy is being moved.

Thirdly he is not sticking and flowing around the arms with much economy of movement , but seems to disengage from the arms of the dummy a lot , in sticking hands this is a habit that will quickly see you getting hammered by your opponent.

Contrast that video with this video of one of my Si-Hing's notice the pivoting of his body and how his bodyweight is transferred into the wooden dummy and how relaxed he is.


[video=youtube_share;aSqeqNOlxOQ]http://youtu.be/aSqeqNOlxOQ[/video]

 

[geezer]

Curious. He posted videos of people he had no direct connection with, without stating that. For example the clip of Victor Gutierrez back in his EWTO days. There was nothing in the instructor's bio to back up any connection with Victor now or then, the EWTO, or any of the American WT groups. I don't know of any of the "masters" he sys he trained under. But that's OK. I don't know very many people outside my own lineage ... and MartialTalk, of course!

 

[WCman1976]

Wow, where to begin? First of all, the dummy form isn't where you should really show the style's speed. If I wanted to make a video demonstrating speed, then I show someone attacking me the way your average street brawler would. Second...okay, you can move fast on the dummy, but your techniques are sloppy. Check out the tan saos and bong saos. The tan sao is supposed to penetrate with forward energy (at least, it is supposed to do that in the dummy form), but with him...it's like he just places his hand against the dummy in way that KIND of looks like a tan sao. Same goes for bong sao. Then all the other videos are of other people, or from movies! Granted, YIP MAN is the closest display of real wing chun I have seen on film, but it still isn't 100% the way it'd be used in the street.

Now on to this lineage thing. He goes absolutely bonkers listing everyone he can think of when he trained in Tang Soo Doo and all the other styles he has dabbled in over the years, even going so far as to brag about training with Bill "Superfoot" Wallace. (What...did he attend a three-day seminar Bill held?) But then you notice when it comes time to talk about his wing chun training, he goes ABSOLUTELY SILENT. Plus his timeline is all confused: started in 1995, was a private student for 12 years...certified Sifu in 1999? Isn't that FOUR years? Am I just not grasping what he means there? Also, if he was primarily a private student, then his chi sao can't be all that good. If you practice chi sao with only one person (in this case, his Sifu), then you haven't really learned how to do it right because everyone has their own little nuances that they bring to the exercise. In other words, he can probably chi sao well...if his partner is his Sifu, or someone who does it LIKE his Sifu.

Last but not least, there is the reply to the email that is copied and pasted in a previous post on this thread. Is that actually REAL??? If the guy has an attitude like that, then I definitely wouldn't go for two reasons: (1) he sounds like a dick, and (2) he sounds like he is going for the hard sell. He wants you to come to the school to check it out instead of posting videos showing what he does because he knows that, once you have someone in front of you, it's harder for them to say "no" than it is to watch a video on Youtube and decide, "Meh, I'm not going there."

 

[onthechin]

No he's right. He's the only one trying to be innovative. The rest of us are making a real effort not to be. We think the only way to train WC is to close our minds to any new ideas and rigidly pursue what has been passed down.
Anytime you see the words 'innovative, freestyle or combat' to name a few, it should start alarm bells ringing. No to mention mixed martial arts..but that's another can of worms...

 

[Tez3]

No he's right. He's the only one trying to be innovative. The rest of us are making a real effort not to be. We think the only way to train WC is to close our minds to any new ideas and rigidly pursue what has been passed down.
Anytime you see the words 'innovative, freestyle or combat' to name a few, it should start alarm bells ringing. No to mention mixed martial arts..but that's another can of worms...[/QUOTE]


Oh really? Someone in one 'style' is dubious so MMA is also?

 

[onthechin]

Yes. How many people can say they know how to fight by doing 20% of multiple styles. If someone knows a style they generally make it their base and work from there. If someone doesnt even know a base style I wouldnt advise anyone to train with them. What I'm saying is the term MMA is dubious because it should be X style mixed with y and z

 

[onthechin]

The whole thing about MMA and UFC these days is rubbish. For one people have been mixing MA since time immorial and secondly people have been fighting with fewer rules than we have today. So tell me, what is so special about todays MMA or UFC except that we now have magazines from the massive publicity machines that run it?

 

[Tez3]

The whole thing about MMA and UFC these days is rubbish. For one people have been mixing MA since time immorial and secondly people have been fighting with fewer rules than we have today. So tell me, what is so special about todays MMA or UFC except that we now have magazines from the massive publicity machines that run it?

Oh dear oh dear, another hater. firstly MMA is the style/sport and UFC is a company, a business. Secondly you are arguing from a position of ignorance about the sport. Perhaps you'll like to contact this chap who will explain more because I really can't be bothered to. Rubbishing other styles is neither polite nor allowed on MT. You don't like it fine but don't put it down because it's not your thing.
http://www.samiberik.com/

 

[onthechin]

Tell me, what 'style' am I rubbishing?

 

[onthechin]

It's nice and easy for you isnt it? You have no style nor allegiance...you can flit from one to another, always in the knowledge that you know best. You can have an argument with anyone from any style but always say you know better because you study multiple styles and get the best of all worlds...what I'm saying is that you need a base art...you need to be able to say something like "I grew up with xxx" or "I've spent most time studying yyy"...

 

[Tez3]

It's nice and easy for you isnt it? You have no style nor allegiance...you can flit from one to another, always in the knowledge that you know best. You can have an argument with anyone from any style but always say you know better because you study multiple styles and get the best of all worlds...what I'm saying is that you need a base art...you need to be able to say something like "I grew up with xxx" or "I've spent most time studying yyy"...

What are you talking about? I have been training karate for over 20 years. Personal attacks aren't allowed here btw.

If you want to rubbish MMA and it's practicioners go across to the appropriate section.

 

[onthechin]

Sorry, wasn't meant to be a personal attack. I just get tired of many people jumping on the MMA bandwagon these days, who have no grounding in any MA but think they are superior because they supposedly take the best parts of multiple styles (without ever needing to learn the other 95% of any 1 style). I agree that MMA is a sport but a style? I'm not really convinced that's the case. A quick google sees it defined as a sport, not a style. I have nothing against people who genuinely devote a huge portion of their lives to training in multiple styles but there is without a doubt, a significant number of people out there who've never bothered to committ to any particular style and claim MMA as their style..once again, it's not a style. You are a karate guy, thats your style, my issue is with people who have 'no style' just MMA.

 

[Tez3]

Sorry, wasn't meant to be a personal attack. I just get tired of many people jumping on the MMA bandwagon these days, who have no grounding in any MA but think they are superior because they supposedly take the best parts of multiple styles (without ever needing to learn the other 95% of any 1 style). I agree that MMA is a sport but a style? I'm not really convinced that's the case. A quick google sees it defined as a sport, not a style. I have nothing against people who genuinely devote a huge portion of their lives to training in multiple styles but there is without a doubt, a significant number of people out there who've never bothered to committ to any particular style and claim MMA as their style..once again, it's not a style. You are a karate guy, thats your style, my issue is with people who have 'no style' just MMA.

Ok, I have been doing karate for over 20 years as I said, MMA for 11 years, we train fighters as well as run fight nights, Micheal Bisping had his pro debut on one of ours, ( I shall make no comment about that lol) we've run over 30 shows. We train am, semi and pro fighters, we've travelled around Europe as well as the UK. Most UK fighters have come from a basic TMA, we tend to differ from the Americans as we don't have the wrestling tradition they have. Some of our MMA fighters while in Afghan though had a good time training with American and Canadian MMA people. They came back with more wrestling moves and they passed on what we do, a very good mutual exchange by all accounts. We do train people in MMA from scratch but they have a good grounding in it rather than just learning a mish mash of styles. They do MT, we are sponsored by Fairtex to whom we send our fighters to train with in Thailand, our instrcutor, a long term karate and Judo guy, goes out there regularly. BJJ and Judo are our grappling styles. Our students are mostly servicemen so when they move they may not have a choice of what style they can do if they want to carry on in martial arts. My instructor is a black belt in several styles simply because he's had to do what ever was on offer whereever he was stationed. Karate and TKD are all similiar enough to be easy to pick up, his first style as a child to adult was Judo. A lot of fighters can be very good with 'just' MMA though, they train hard, put a lot into it and are willing to learn so I wouldn't knock people if they are 'just' MMA.

Btw I'm not a guy lol.

 

[WTchap]

I too haven't heard of this teacher and his "innovative" Wing Chun :wink2:

So I wouldn't want to defend him in a total sense... however, his Wooden Dummy form video does state that he is demo'ing a fast version and that this is not the only way he trains the form.

In WT we also sometimes practice the dummy form quickly - it is not how we learn the form or even how we play it regularly, but doing it quickly does have a purpose (provided you can implement speed without losing the other things you should train/focus on during the form).

Here's a clip I like very much (from Sifu Chris Collins, who learned his Wing Tsun in Hong Kong).

This isn't the dummy form, just some random play/freestyle work. But nonetheless, he works with speed while at the same time keeping stick when needed, using push-and-pull force, transferring power into the dummy, working some great angles and, my favorite thing about the clip, he demos really good use of weight shifting, turning and stepping. Lots to WT concepts/ideas can be found in this video.

Also, this freestyle dummy clip has something that is quite often missing - strong intent!

So basically, fast is not always bad or always wrong (IMHO).

 

[onthechin]

Well ok sorry...babe? Your organisation travels....while in afghan? Though a good time? So you learnt some (probably) wrestling moves from the afghanis..We do train people in MMA from scratch but they do have good grounding in it...Im not gonna go any further.

 

[Tez3]

Well ok sorry...babe? Your organisation travels....while in afghan? Though a good time? So you learnt some (probably) wrestling moves from the afghanis..We do train people in MMA from scratch but they do have good grounding in it...Im not gonna go any further.

Er did you read my post? My students are servicemen, they don't wrestle with Afghans they fight them. They were training MMA with American Marines and Canadian soldiers, I don't actually think you read anything I wrote did you. I take it you prefer to make personal attacks and disparaging comments.

 

[onthechin]

I just watched District 9...what a great movie! Ive been doing wing chun for over 20 years...why are you posting on this forum if you have nothing to do with WC?? So you manage a few guys? Who? When you say your instructor is a black belt in TKD and Karate it makes me wonder once again...why are you posting on this forum? You're not a guy? Never said you were and couldnt care less.

 

[MaikuB]

I think that was referring to you saying "You are a karate guy..."