Improving in Martial Arts

[kuniggety]

The Secret Shortcut to Fast Jiu-Jitsu Improvement - Q and A - KEENANONLINE.COM

Q&A session with Keenan Cornelius, a high-level BJJ competitor. I think what he has to say goes for any martial arts student, despite the subject being BJJ

I liked his point of "If you're beating down everyone in the gym, then maybe you're at the wrong gym". He posits that you should be going in and getting wrecked on a continual basis.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I liked his point of "If you're beating down everyone in the gym, then maybe you're at the wrong gym".

If you put the whole earth population in a tournament, there will be one winner. Does that mean that winner lives on the wrong planet?

 

[drop bear]

If you put the whole earth population in a tournament, there will be one winner. Does that mean that winner lives on the wrong planet?

He may be dominant but he may not be improving.

 

[Touch Of Death]

There is so much more to the art than beating up your fellow martial artists.

 

[Headhunter]

The Secret Shortcut to Fast Jiu-Jitsu Improvement - Q and A - KEENANONLINE.COM

Q&A session with Keenan Cornelius, a high-level BJJ competitor. I think what he has to say goes for any martial arts student, despite the subject being BJJ

I liked his point of "If you're beating down everyone in the gym, then maybe you're at the wrong gym". He posits that you should be going in and getting wrecked on a continual basis.

So I go somewhere get beat up then somehow I'm miraculously better? You have to be taught the techique not just fight you need to actually be taught and not just put on gloves and try and destroy everyone

 

[kuniggety]

So I go somewhere get beat up then somehow I'm miraculously better? You have to be taught the techique not just fight you need to actually be taught and not just put on gloves and try and destroy everyone

Did you watch the video or are you taking the point I mentioned out of context?

It's in the context of taking a newbie and beat them over...and over...and over. What did you just learn by beating them? Nothing. You should be competing with folks of a higher skill level so you can learn from them/the mistakes you make competing against them.

At a certain point, it's not just about learning techniques. It's the million micro-techniques your body learns by adjusting to new situations.

 

[drop bear]

So I go somewhere get beat up then somehow I'm miraculously better? You have to be taught the techique not just fight you need to actually be taught and not just put on gloves and try and destroy everyone

 

[Buka]

The Secret Shortcut to Fast Jiu-Jitsu Improvement - Q and A - KEENANONLINE.COM

Q&A session with Keenan Cornelius, a high-level BJJ competitor. I think what he has to say goes for any martial arts student, despite the subject being BJJ

I liked his point of "If you're beating down everyone in the gym, then maybe you're at the wrong gym". He posits that you should be going in and getting wrecked on a continual basis.

I feel you, bro. It's really a two headed beast. If you're the best guy in your dojo you should be helping everyone else grow. If you're the best guy in your dojo, you should be running the place. But you should also supplement your training with a teacher who can help you develop even more. if you have the time and opportunity, of course. And that is not always the case.

 

[Paul_D]

So the casual martial artist who takes a couple of lessens a week just as a more interesting way of keeping fit than going to the gym, needs to get wrecked?

No, different people train for different reasons, so not every student needs, or wants, to push themselves, get wrecked and beat down everyone.

 

[Tez3]

It's in the context of taking a newbie and beat them over...and over...and over. What did you just learn by beating them?

That's supposing that the class is made up of one experienced person and the rest are newbies. If that were the case the experienced person should be teaching, one learns a lot doing that.
However I have noticed before that an experienced person who rolls ( or spars) with beginners, deliberately picking them week after week without the intention of helping them, is doing it because they don't want to roll/spar with someone who can 'beat' them. We had a student who always made for the least experienced person in the class week after week, he did it because he could show off and wasn't likely to be beaten. Of course the newer students thought he was great, he got remarks about how good he was etc so his ego was satisfied. When we started putting him with people who matched him, he left.

 

[kuniggety]

I feel you, bro. It's really a two headed beast. If you're the best guy in your dojo you should be helping everyone else grow. If you're the best guy in your dojo, you should be running the place. But you should also supplement your training with a teacher who can help you develop even more. if you have the time and opportunity, of course. And that is not always the case.

That's supposing that the class is made up of one experienced person and the rest are newbies. If that were the case the experienced person should be teaching, one learns a lot doing that.

Concur with what you two mentioned about teaching. I think it's great to give back. I like working with the new people. Keenan talks about the two kinds of learning needed... technical and sparring. You learn a lot technical wise when teaching.

So the casual martial artist who takes a couple of lessens a week just as a more interesting way of keeping fit than going to the gym, needs to get wrecked?

No, different people train for different reasons, so not every student needs, or wants, to push themselves, get wrecked and beat down everyone.

To improve, you should be getting wrecked. If you're not testing your skills in a stressed environment then you might as well be doing forms. Which is fine for some people. Going to the gym to get fit is a goal in itself but that's not what this is about. This is about the goal of being the strongest fighter you can be. It's about learning how to make a martial art work for you.

 

[Paul_D]

To improve, you should be getting wrecked. If you're not testing your skills in a stressed environment then you might as well be doing forms. Which is fine for some people.

Exactly, that's fine for some people so they don't need to be getting wrecked in a stressed environment. Not every martial artist trains to be the strongest fighter.

 

[kuniggety]

Exactly, that's fine for some people so they don't need to be getting wrecked in a stressed environment. Not every martial artist trains to be the strongest fighter.

Agreed, so they are not what my post was about. It was about the best method of improving as a martial artist/fighter/competitor and reaching your full potential. No where did I or Keenan (if you watched the video) say that this applies to the goals of every single person who joins a martial arts gym.

 

[Paul_D]

Agreed, so they are not what my post was about.

But they are what your post is about, as you said it "goes for any martial arts student".

 

[kuniggety]

But they are what your post is about, as you said it "goes for any martial arts student".

No, I posted "despite the subject being BJJ" along with that, i.e. In reference to a student of a martial art aside from BJJ. It was a comment on the video to which I linked. If you don't watch it then you won't have the context.

 

[Paul_D]

No, I posted "despite the subject being BJJ" along with that, i.e. In reference to a student of a martial art aside from BJJ. It was a comment on the video to which I linked. If you don't watch it then you won't have the context.

Yes, any student is what you said. But that is a blanket statement, and therefore not accurate. Getting "wrecked on a continual basis" doesn't help an Iaido practitioner, or the casual martial artist who does forms once a week, or a child who has taken up martial arts to help with confidence/shyness.

You also said "This is about being the strongest fighter you can be". Again, no it's not. Not every martial artist, and not every martial art, has an interest in being "the strongest fighter". So neither you, nor he, nor indeed anybody else should be trying to tell every other marital artist how they should be training and what goals they should be training for.

If your goal is to be the strongest fighter, and you want to get wrecked in a stressful environment in order to achieve that, good for you. But that's doesn't mean that the people who don't train that way or have those goals are doing it wrong.

 

[kuniggety]

Yes, any student is what you said. But that is a blanket statement, and therefore not accurate. Getting "wrecked on a continual basis" doesn't help an Iaido practitioner, or the casual martial artist who does forms once a week, or a child who has taken up martial arts to help with confidence/shyness.

You also said "This is about being the strongest fighter you can be". Again, no it's not. Not every martial artist, and not every martial art, has an interest in being "the strongest fighter". So neither you, nor he, nor indeed anybody else should be trying to tell every other marital artist how they should be training and what goals they should be training for.

If your goal is to be the strongest fighter, and you want to get wrecked in a stressful environment in order to achieve that, good for you. But that's doesn't mean that the people who don't train that way or have those goals are doing it wrong.

If you won't watch the video there is no point in continuing. What you're saying has nothing to do with the topic. It's the idea of a boxer intentionally training with the guy who always lands a left hook on him instead of training with the guy he knows he's going to beat. If you think anyone is going to get better by avoiding their weaknesses then I'm at a loss for words.

If you need an example of say iaido, a non-competitive art, then it's the person deciding to train outside instead of on the mats in their dojo. Or they're used to one sword and they decide to try one that's longer. It's outside of their comfort zone and they're learning by adjusting to it.

I don't know why you're so bent on arguing semantics instead of looking at intent and context (ie the video referenced).

 

[Headhunter]

If you won't watch the video there is no point in continuing. What you're saying has nothing to do with the topic. It's the idea of a boxer intentionally training with the guy who always lands a left hook on him instead of training with the guy he knows he's going to beat. If you think anyone is going to get better by avoiding their weaknesses then I'm at a loss for words.

Actually fighting people worse than you can absolutely help you learn. You can use it to to work on new combinations and switch up strategies. When you fight better people you have to stick what you know works for you but with lower people you can try out new ideas

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I liked his point of "If you're beating down everyone in the gym, then maybe you're at the wrong gym".

He may be dominant but he may not be improving.

If you have good wrestling skill and nobody can take you down, that should not be your problem but your opponent's problem.

MA has a lot of paradox. As Confucius said, "One should make friend to whom is better than you." The question is if someone is better than you, why should that person want to be your friend if he thinks the same way as you do?

Here is an example.

You walk into a gym and you can beat up everybody in that gym. Finally someone walks in and he can beat you up. You told yourself that you want to stay in this gym so you can improve yourself from that person. If that person also feels the same way as you do, since he can beat up everybody in that gym include you, why should he stay in that gym since he no longer be able to improve himself? If the best guy in the gym always leaves, there will be nobody left in that gym at the end.

- A gym has A, B, C, D and A > B > C > D.
- A is the best, A leaves. B, C, D remain.
- Now B is the best. B leaves. C, D remain.
- Now C is the best. C leaves. D remain.
- Since D is the only person left. There is nobody else to practice with, D leaves too.

This logic just doesn't make sense.

 

[kuniggety]

Actually fighting people worse than you can absolutely help you learn. You can use it to to work on new combinations and switch up strategies. When you fight better people you have to stick what you know works for you but with lower people you can try out new ideas

That would be one of the levels of training. Drill it solo, ie as a form, then drill it in a relaxed environment, and then drill it in a scenario with someone actively trying to shut it down, ie a skilled opponent.