I'm a new guy here...

[BrendanF]

Hey Onasis - I'm Finny from ef/RSF. Good to see you still kicking!

 

[windwalker099]

I know you're like me John, you like fighting or at least are the kind of MA that wants to apply. I respect that.

Are you saying you like going out and "fighting" with random people in the street
you respect this ?

It is a nightmare scenario for any Traditional MA that thinks he can just step in the ring and apply the same way he does in the Kwoon or dojo.

Of course.

Specific training for an event is crucial. Anyone thinking they can enter an 'event' without having trained specifically for it, regardless of their general training, is unlikely to achieve a good outcome.

Taiji emphasizes on "water strategy". If you use "earth strategy" with strong defense and move in inch by inch, most Taiji people may have trouble to deal with you because

- Taiji guys don't like to attack first. But your inch by inch move in can hardly be called as "attack".
- There is no force that they can borrow from you.
- Taiji guy don't like to use force against force.

My experience is different

Not about whether force is used or not; it's about the kind or type of force being applied.
Not about attacking first, or not; it's about being able to join with or sense the opponent's intent before the physical attack occurs.

This process is typically divided into three phases: before, during, and after the attack.
Most practitioners, however, start by focusing on the 'after' phase.

In sparring/fighting, one wants to listen and control their opponent from the furthest distance away, enter then finish. Ranges can be defined in various ways e.g., kicking, striking, wrestling and locking and/or safe zone, fight zone and borders.

“Boxing is the art of hitting your opponent with the maximum amount of leverage from the furthest distance possible while exposing the least of yourself.” — Kenny Weldon

Tibetan White Crane also specializes in this aspect, with many footwork patterns and training methods designed to understand and enhance this skill set. In Taiji, it largely depends on the training approach.

There is a point where both fighters can touch each other. However, there is another point before contact is made where one may listen and control their opponent. I have an advantage if I can listen and control you before the "stick point," get you double weighted then enter and finish.

In MMA, Tai Chi's fighting skills lure, listen, control and dissolve can be done without bridging ...

A skill not commonly trained, due to changes in training focus..

The focus on push hands, which was originally intended to develop this skill set, has, for many, shifted into a competitive activity—essentially becoming the antithesis of what it was meant to cultivate.

Especially when someone suggests controlling me without even touching me... It borders on Supernatural ability and don't get me started on Ling Kong jing. If being able to stop an attacker from a distance (ie not touching) was even remotely possible it would be amazing. Otherwise its pure fantasy.

If someone can Kong Jing me away and stop me without touching me, I'd quit MA forever.

'Pure fantasy'— often the perception of those who have not encountered it.
Read the aforementioned, as to being controlled without touch used in other arts.

It is a nightmare scenario for any Traditional MA that thinks he can just step in the ring and apply the same way he does in the Kwoon or dojo.

Similarly, the same critique has been leveled at (CMA) for not proving itself in the ring, according to you and others.

If it 'doesn't work as advertised,' one might then ask: why train it?

As to working or not,,I'd say more a matter of level of the practitioner..and focus of training.

Many use practitioners from other arts and competitive backgrounds as examples of what are thought to be CMA movements or applications, from CMA styles the competitors have not trained in, to either validate or justify the methods and applications used in CMA.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Are you saying you like going out and "fighting" with random people in the street
you respect this ?

I like sparring/wrestling, friendly challenge, unfriendly challenge, tournament competition. It doesn't mean that I like street fighting.

I had walked into a Kempo school and challenged the Kempo instructor. When I saw a group of wrestlers wrestled in the park, I liked to join them to test my skill. I don't consider those actions as "go out and fight with random people in the street". Most of my fighting experience was someone challenged me and I accepted.

 

[Subitai]

Yes, I agree with everything you said. I believe you misunderstood my reply. I just added to what you said.


I agree. John may have misunderstood your point. But John answered your question (which may have been rhetorical) in his own way, not necessarily disagreeing with you (like me).


I agree. And to discuss further your point, Ali is listening to and controlling his opponent before contact with footwork, feints, deception, pressure/non-pressure, etc. It’s the same non-touch concept but by using different methods and skills to achieve it.


You may have misread the 2 videos by NTUMA and Taichi Lab. I don’t believe they were talking about using Taiji against MMA (nor was I). They were talking about a Taiji concept of controlling their opponent before a “stick point” without touch. However, Taiji and MMA, boxing and basketball may have differences in interpretation, skills and techniques in following that concept.


They used Michael Jordan (championship basketball player), Lyoto Machida (UFC champion) and Mike Tyson (World Champion) as examples of controlling without touch. None of them are considered fake.


I don’t disagree.


I agree. However, they were not talking about “Supernatural abilities," only proven non-contact skills against non-compliant opponents used by Jordan, Machida and Mike Tyson…

OK cool, great videos. Who doesn't appreciate the GOAT M J. ? Or Tyson, or even the little guy.

In reality, NO Tai Chi schools train that way, at all. There might be a individual Taichi fighter out there who is willing to cross train. But that is not the norm.

Actually, when I went to visit Chen village I was pretty impressed by what I saw. It was back in 98' .

1st I saw young kids doing low stances and punching the crap out of eachother. It looked more like Karate ala Kyokushin. Hardening their bodies taking and dishing out shots. I was impressed.

2nd, I saw kids (a bit older group) in Shuai Jiao type throwing jackets and they were tossing eachother around. Good breakfalls for landing in dirt. Again wow!

3rd , it looked like teenagers (young men) they were sparring and tossing people around. Normal clothes I guess, not really uniforms.

* That 3rd group is where I met to Westerners who were staying there to train. They were kinda all beat up and had bruises. Even tho they were grown men. I forgot their names but one was from NY and his buddy was Puerto Rican.

I spoke with them for awhile and one guy joked about he figured out " how to survive training...haha"

I said, what do you mean?

He said, " Every time I try to attack, I get my a$$ handed to me, but if I just back up...they can't really do much"

4th group up, were more adults and older and they were really focusing on form. Which is what most of us expected to see from the start. These were engaging in more Public style push hands, if you get my drift.

Now, the reason I tell that story is because up to that point I had never seen tougher training for most Tai chi out there other that what most people see. Which IMO most people only see what was mostly demonstrated by the last group...Ie, some forms and push hands.

I contend that, the state of Tai Chi doesn't effectively exist between two opponents until the touch or contact is made. Mabe that's just me. You will never see Judo or Tai Chi guys simply throwing punches at eachother (withdrawing each strike as fast as possible, dancing around to punch only)

What will they do? eventually the goal is to create a connection or grab a gi / jacket/ shirt / hair / bottom lip... haha I don't care but something.
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*** Regardless, none of that training resembles what Michael Jordan was teaching

*** Nothing about Tysons style of boxing resembles ANY modern tai chi training. Im saying what Tyson did was a product of his Boxing training. Nothing in TC training prepares you do that EXACTLY like him...you'd have to extrapolate and cross train and think beyond the normal Tai Chi mind set.

**BUT, Tyson is not a grappler/wrestler either...which is obvious.

I'm not gonna go much further, unless i'm asked again. It's just that John asked me my opinions and I gave what my experiences have taught me. If we were all together in a school, it'd be very fun to sparr it out and see our different points of view.

BTW, That was the year I decided to take my Tai chi more seriously. Before that, it was mostly for teaching curriculum.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you'd have to extrapolate and cross train and think beyond the normal Tai Chi mind set.

Agree with what you have said. Most of my Taiji friends all cross trained other MA systems. They won't let Taiji system to put unnecessary limitation on themselves (such as "don't use force"). IMO, when there is no force to borrow, you just have to use your own force.

Bill Gates doesn't need to borrow money from bank. We all want to train to be like Bill Gates.

 

[Subitai]

Are you saying you like going out and "fighting" with random people in the street
you respect this ?

All i'm saying is that Like minded people, like to spar and apply if and when the opportunities arise... there are plenty of martial artists out there who never really intend to touch hands at all, let alone be willing to be punched or thrown. So whenever I get the chance , i'll engage with good martial artists as much as both of us are willing to do. Mabe have a beer afterwards.
*** I mean, I'm not out to make enemies, it should be obvious what I mean to people who understand.

'Pure fantasy'— often the perception of those who have not encountered it.
Read the aforementioned, as to being controlled without touch used in other arts.

Similarly, the same critique has been leveled at (CMA) for not proving itself in the ring, according to you and others.

If it 'doesn't work as advertised,' one might then ask: why train it?

As to working or not,,I'd say more a matter of level of the practitioner..and focus of training.

Many use practitioners from other arts and competitive backgrounds as examples of what are thought to be CMA movements or applications, from CMA styles the competitors have not trained in, to either validate or justify the methods and applications used in CMA.

OK dude about Fantasy, if you believe someone can WOO WOO wave their hands and stop a full grown man from charging you with his fists or a knife??? I get it, my bad, you got it.
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Now, about "critique has been leveled at (CMA) for not proving itself in the ring"

By me? I don't know what you mean by that?
I've fought MMA in the Octagon representing CMA and I won belts fighting Chinese San Da. I have no problems with CMA needing to be proven.

All of this is because John asked me my opinions about Taiji, judo and wrestling. So I pointed out what I believe to be critical for their use.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

All of this is because John asked me my opinions about Taiji, judo and wrestling. So I pointed out what I believe to be critical for their use.

I mainly try to ask your opinion about why "leg skill (such as front cut)" that's commonly used in Judo but are not commonly used in Taiji.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm primarily Chinese Martial Arts Now... Hung Gar, Yang and Sun Tai Chi.

FMA, Judo and wrestling back in the day, plus I fought some MMA.

Everything is pretty chill now.

Sun Taijiquan! Where?

 

[windwalker099]

All i'm saying is that Like minded people, like to spar and apply if and when the opportunities arise... there are plenty of martial artists out there who never really intend to touch hands at all, let alone be willing to be punched or thrown. So whenever I get the chance , i'll engage with good martial artists as much as both of us are willing to do. Mabe have a beer afterwards.
*** I mean, I'm not out to make enemies, it should be obvious what I mean to people who understand.

Asked to clarify, as shown on this thread "The Resurgence of Traditional Martial Arts in Modern Mixed Martial Arts"
"fighting" can have different meanings for different people.

Most of those I've met in my time, were happy to share and allow others to feel their work...
More so for those who had unusual skill sets..

OK dude about Fantasy, if you believe someone can WOO WOO wave their hands and stop a full grown man from charging you with his fists or a knife??? I get it, my bad, you got it.

Dude , it's not a belief—speaking from experience. not the main topic of the thread, though it does touch on what some posts mentioned: contact starts before touch.

How, why, and what—are things I’ve been researching for some 20 years now.
Historically, there are accounts of masters who could do similar things.

Taiji, depending on how it’s practiced, teaches this skill based on different theories that make it work, typically starting from touch.

Other styles like Tibetan White Crane, used different methods to train footwork, angling, and distancing.
teaching controlling the space before contact.

Now, about "critique has been leveled at (CMA) for not proving itself in the ring"

By me? I don't know what you mean by that?
I've fought MMA in the Octagon representing CMA and I won belts fighting Chinese San Da. I have no problems with CMA needing to be proven.

All of this is because John asked me my opinions about Taiji, judo and wrestling. So I pointed out what I believe to be critical for their use.

Not about what "JW" asked.
Found some of the comments interesting..

The comment about CMA was something that was noted back in the 70s, what many who practiced CMA did not look like anything they did in the ring ?

Boxers, look like boxers, TKD, looks like TKD...CMA looks like ?

spent a lot of time disproving doubters I met using Tibetan White Crane, which is quite distinctive in its use and application.

Those who claimed they boxed were often the most interesting to engage with, as we would agree to exclude kicking. What they didn’t understand, stylistically, I had the advantage.

Some of the teachers I knew altered the style to fit competitions for those who wanted to participate. While I understood their reasoning, didn’t agree with it, felt the essence of the style was being compromised for competitive considerations.

Historically, the opposite. Those entering events were quite distinctive in using their method, ensuring that what they did in competition reflected what they had trained.

 

[windwalker099]

I mainly try to ask your opinion about why "leg skill (such as front cut)" that's commonly used in Judo but are not commonly used in Taiji.

Maybe, it's not used depending on practice...