If You Were Transported 300 Years Into The Past With No Clothes Or Anything Else, How Would You Prov

[Chrisinmd]

agree, but then as i said some thinks look inevitable , if not in the specific then in the general, if wilks booth had failed that night, would he or someone else have suceeded a fortnight later, AL had annoyed an awful lot of people, the presidents security right up to RR left a LoT to be desired, he was first the first of a few.

same with 9,11 the attack was amateur hour, which may be why it succeded, it was so badly planned and executed, that no stratgist in their right mind would have predicted it, a major terrorist act on america was however odds on, the 7,7 attacks on London conerned blowibg up packed tube trains, there no way to actually stop that other than intel, so theres a good chance that something a bit like 9,11 would have occured some time later, how much a change of venue would have effected thr big picture out come, is open to debate, clearly the twin towers were on top of the dreadfull death toll, an inconic target, would the invasions, wars and legal frame work have been greatly different if it had been a more mundane target

Good point they could have just taken Lincoln out the next night a week or month later if it had been stopped that night. Maybe the failed attempt may have caused them to increase security though and possibly prevented it from happening all together? Probaly not since Presidents even more then 100 years later were still getting targeted.

Interesting the point you brought up about 9/11 if it was a less iconic target would be have avoiding the invasions and wars in the middle east. I think it was more the number of people killed then the iconic target. If they had blew up a shopping mall and killed 3000 people I would think we would still have invaded and went to war. But maybe the iconic target and spectacular nature of the attack influenced the US response and made it more severe

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is very true. Lots of random events that could have gone either way changed the world.

What if President Lincolns bodyguard had not went off and got drunk when he was supposed to be standing guard and instead ended up stopping Lincolns killing? How much would that have changed the world?

Or if the flight screeners on 9/11 actually done their job and found the boxcutters the terrorists had on them. No 9/11.

Thousands of examples like these. A lot of stuff just comes down to random chance and dumb luck

You have a mistaken notion about the screeners being at fault. Prior to 9/11, it was entirely legal to carry small blades on planes.

 

[Chrisinmd]

You have a mistaken notion about the screeners being at fault. Prior to 9/11, it was entirely legal to carry small blades on planes.

Boxcutters Weren't Allowed Pre-9/11 - CBS News

Not sure your 100 percent correct on that. The article I posted basically says the boxcutters should have been seized by flight screeners. It was airport policy and in their manual to seize them but boxcutters were not specifically named as an item to be be seized however by the gov.

So I guess bringing boxcutters were technically legal but against airline policy to allow them

 

[dvcochran]

Boxcutters Weren't Allowed Pre-9/11 - CBS News

Not sure your 100 percent correct on that. The article I posted basically says the boxcutters should have been seized by flight screeners. It was airport policy and in their manual to seize them but boxcutters were not specifically named as an item to be be seized however by the gov.

So I guess bringing boxcutters were technically legal but against airline policy to allow them

From the article:
"FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said keeping boxcutters off planes was an industry requirement, not a government order. She said the FAA allowed airline passengers to carry blades less than four inches long before Sept. 11. Government rules now prohibit such items.

Other items allowed into airplane cabins, according to the manual, included baseball bats, darts, knitting needles, pocket utility knifes less than four inches long and scissors."

I carry a pocket knife all day, every day. Pre 9/11, there was no issue with me carrying a pocket knife ever from any airport I traveled in/out of. That would include every US state but two (Hawaii & Idaho), several places in Canada & Mexico, and even Malaysia. Some smaller airports did not even require you to empty your pockets. Tell them what you had, they would wand you and sometimes give you a quick pat down, and then walk right on through the scanner without stopping. Some places did not even have a scanner. It was very lax by comparison to post 9/11.

Back around 1995 we had built an assembly line in TN and had it transported to Toronto (that would be very difficult these days). A 75ish pound piece of tooling was late being built. I had a "I'll give it a try" moment, sprayed the tool with Sentry tuff coat (which has a very strong odor) put oil dry in the bottom of a wooden box and carried it into the airport with me. Looking back it straight up looked like some kind of bomb or something. Trying not too look like it was too heavy I walked straight on to the plane with the box as a carry on. Stunk up the whole plane, leaked oil dry on the floor at my seat and no one ever said a word. I did get a 'look' from one of the stewards who knew me as a regular. On the way off of the plane I waited to be last and slipped him a tip and apologized for the mess. He chuckled and gave me a smile. The Co-pilot came out (most of the time the doors never closed on short trips back then) and the three of us talked for a few minutes. The Co-pilot said they were wondering what the smell was. I told them what I had done and apologized. I went on my way and that was the end of it.

Framing it from todays perspective I don't know if I would be out of trouble yet for pulling that stunt.

 

[Chrisinmd]

From the article:
"FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said keeping boxcutters off planes was an industry requirement, not a government order. She said the FAA allowed airline passengers to carry blades less than four inches long before Sept. 11. Government rules now prohibit such items.

Other items allowed into airplane cabins, according to the manual, included baseball bats, darts, knitting needles, pocket utility knifes less than four inches long and scissors."

I carry a pocket knife all day, every day. Pre 9/11, there was no issue with me carrying a pocket knife ever from any airport I traveled in/out of. That would include every US state but two (Hawaii & Idaho), several places in Canada & Mexico, and even Malaysia. Some smaller airports did not even require you to empty your pockets. Tell them what you had, they would wand you and sometimes give you a quick pat down, and then walk right on through the scanner without stopping. Some places did not even have a scanner. It was very lax by comparison to post 9/11.

Back around 1995 we had built an assembly line in TN and had it transported to Toronto (that would be very difficult these days). A 75ish pound piece of tooling was late being built. I had a "I'll give it a try" moment, sprayed the tool with Sentry tuff coat (which has a very strong odor) put oil dry in the bottom of a wooden box and carried it into the airport with me. Looking back it straight up looked like some kind of bomb or something. Trying not too look like it was too heavy I walked straight on to the plane with the box as a carry on. Stunk up the whole plane, leaked oil dry on the floor at my seat and no one ever said a word. I did get a 'look' from one of the stewards who knew me as a regular. On the way off of the plane I waited to be last and slipped him a tip and apologized for the mess. He chuckled and gave me a smile. The Co-pilot came out (most of the time the doors never closed on short trips back then) and the three of us talked for a few minutes. The Co-pilot said they were wondering what the smell was. I told them what I had done and apologized. I went on my way and that was the end of it.

Framing it from todays perspective I don't know if I would be out of trouble yet for pulling that stunt.

Yes flight security was a lot more lax pre 9/11. But I still think the flight screeners shoulder some blame.
First the flight screeners never even found the box cutters on them. They should not have allowed them to board until they cleared the metal detector. Im not sure where they were hiding them but if they found they concealed in their underwear or something then that should have caused further investigation. If the box cutters were found at the very least it should have raised some red flags why 4 muslim dudes are all carrying box cutters.

So basically what I am saying is if the flight screeners had done anything more then the (bare minimium even by pre 9/11 standards) 9/11 could have been prevented.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yes flight security was a lot more lax pre 9/11. But I still think the flight screeners shoulder some blame.
First the flight screeners never even found the box cutters on them. They should not have allowed them to board until they cleared the metal detector. Im not sure where they were hiding them but if they found they concealed in their underwear or something then that should have caused further investigation. If the box cutters were found at the very least it should have raised some red flags why 4 muslim dudes are all carrying box cutters.

So basically what I am saying is if the flight screeners had done anything more then the (bare minimium even by pre 9/11 standards) 9/11 could have been prevented.

That really wasn't the minimum back then. First-them being Muslim had no real reason to raise suspicion at that time, and domestic terrorism is a thing as well. Second-there are tons of stories of people having various weapons on them-it wasn't a concern since nothing like that had happened to make it a concern. So the bare minimum at that time was really "do you have a passport (if needed), do you have all the papers, do you have any bombs or firearms?"

 

[jobo]

That really wasn't the minimum back then. First-them being Muslim had no real reason to raise suspicion at that time, and domestic terrorism is a thing as well. Second-there are tons of stories of people having various weapons on them-it wasn't a concern since nothing like that had happened to make it a concern. So the bare minimum at that time was really "do you have a passport (if needed), do you have all the papers, do you have any bombs or firearms?"

yra maybe

when i fkew to the,states in 1999,getting on the flight required beibg questioned and profiled, getting out of lax was 10 times as difficult and a long lay over in jfk, was nightmarish, as every time( i frequent) went for a cig, i had to be scanned searched and profiled agaiin, thats about 20 times. in 10 hours

there was no doubt that terrorism was a a major concern prior to 9.11 and that highjackibg an international flight was to put it mildly extremly difficult

then i flew from la to portland, with no secutity checks at all, i mean nothing, i may have had to walk through a scanner, but if i did i a) dont remmber and b) didnt get stopped for the nice new knife and numerous tools id bought in la that i had in my hand luggage, in fact omi only had hand luggage .

thats because the internal flights were being run as a bus service.

so as far as foreseability its clear they didnt forsee the danger to internal flights or if they did concluded it was far to inconvient to sort out, but perhaps they really should have done ir sone something about it,, n international airports were on high alert, because of the terrorism threat

 

[Dirty Dog]

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Mark A Cochran
@Dirty Dog
MartialTalk Senior Moderator