If accuracy is most important

[PhotonGuy]

This thread took a turn somewhere LOL
and I'm not so sure that fighter jets and grenades have always hit their targets.
Not to mention Tanks.

I don't know if this is true but I once heard about people stopping tanks by using gas grenades of all things.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Around the time of the Sandy Hook shooting, in China there was a psychopath who went to a school and attacked students and faculty with a knife. While some people were hurt really badly and had to go to the hospital, they all lived, unlike in the Sandy Hook shooting where 26 people were killed. The anti gun crowd loves to point out that in the case in China, since all the attacker had was a knife, he wasn't able to kill any of his victims. If he had a gun no doubt some or all of them would be dead. The thing is, guns are super hard to get in China.

Knife attacks become more common in countries that have no guns.: Knife-wielding attackers kill 29 at China train station - CNN.com
130 injured with a knife/machete
Outside the Americas Knives Are Often the Weapon of Choice in Homicides Smart News Smithsonian

One person with a knife can be overwhelmed by multiple attacks, but when you have 10 people with knives attacking then there's no way to really know where the next attack is coming from.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I wouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight, except as a backup weapon.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I wouldn't bring myself to a gun fight or knife fight lol. But in all seriousness. I was in the store one day and this guy walked by me with with a concealed gun and I knew he probably feels safe, but the reality of it was:
1. I saw the gun
2. If I had knife or brick and attacked first then his gun would have been totally useless.
I think someone mentioned that the effectiveness of a weapon is based on one's ability to deploy it during the conflict.

I'm just glad that most people who do attack with knives really don't know how to use the knives beyond stabbing and those who attack with guns usually don't have a well thought out plan beyond pulling the trigger. In terms of being able to survive. I definitely would have better chances of escaping a knife attack (provided that I see it before the first stab attempt), than I would a gun.

With a knife my chances of survival increases with distance, but with a gun, my only chances to fight back is being within my grabbing range any thing beyond my range means I'll have to move around like a monkey and hope that the person can't shoot straight or that they really don't want to shoot me. The only thing that would give me a fighting chance is to have a gun and better aim.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I wouldn't bring myself to a gun fight or knife fight lol. But in all seriousness. I was in the store one day and this guy walked by me with with a concealed gun and I knew he probably feels safe, but the reality of it was:
1. I saw the gun
2. If I had knife or brick and attacked first then his gun would have been totally useless.

Oh? And just how, exactly, do you plan to kill him instantly with either knife or brick? Real world here, not Hollywood.

I think someone mentioned that the effectiveness of a weapon is based on one's ability to deploy it during the conflict.

And it's no more difficult to deploy a handgun than a knife. Easier, in many cases, since many (most?) knives carried are folders and deep in a pocket.

I'm just glad that most people who do attack with knives really don't know how to use the knives beyond stabbing and those who attack with guns usually don't have a well thought out plan beyond pulling the trigger. In terms of being able to survive. I definitely would have better chances of escaping a knife attack (provided that I see it before the first stab attempt), than I would a gun.

Even if you don't see it coming, you're more likely to be both alive and functional after the knife wound than a bullet wound (OK, maybe not if they're shooting .22 shorts, but a .380 or larger with modern defensive ammo...).

Drawing on memory from 30+ years in the ER, I will say that the most common knife wound is a 3-4" folder. The most common bullet wounds are 9mm (used to be the .357 Mag...). Given that these will account for the vast majority of knife and gun wounds, I will say unequivocally that a bullet will do more damage than a knife wound to the same general area.
Unless you want to get silly and compare a .22 short to a two handed battle axe...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Dirty Dog
That's reality. There's no hollywood in it. Unexpected people have been knocked out with one punch when they were knowingly attacked: What makes you think a gun would have made a difference in these attacks?

2nd. If a person comes behind you and slices the vein in your neck, what makes you think you'll be in any condition to fight them off long enough to shoot them, remember you attacker knows you have a gun, now you are bleeding from your neck and you have to struggle to pull your gun out of your holster. You are also put in a situation where you have to defend against knife attacks while trying to grab your gun from your holster.

3rd. If a person smashes a brick to your skull what makes you think that the damage would be less than someone sucker punching you in the face?

Now lets keep it real. The day that I saw the guy with the gun, he had no idea I was staring at his gun, and thinking of how many things could be done to him to not only injure him, but also prevent him from drawing his gun. All of this was within half an arms reach from him. That's what I do as a normal self-defense exercise. I try to find weaknesses and identify strengths which is how I spotted his gun in the first place. It may seem like I'm the criminal minded one, but I didn't know who that guy was, if he was there to use the gun, or if he was criminal. The only thing I knew was that the best attack to deal with him would be a surprise attack and that any successful attack would have to also focus on making sure that couldn't remove the gun from the holster.

A gun is not a guarantee that you can defend yourself from a surprise attack. If you know a person has a gun, then the best attack is a surprised attack. Proof of that

Many people think stabbing is the most efficient way to use a knife but if you have ever done weapons training with a knife then you would see that stabbing is the last thing that's going to happen.

People who do the stabbing usually have the knife out way before they actually start stabbing someone. It doesn't make sense to attack someone, then dig in your pockets for a folding knife, then unfold, then attack.

Your chances of survival are slim if a person, who actually knows how to use a knife, surprise attacks you. Which goes back other statement "I'm just glad that most people who do attack with knives really don't know how to use the knives beyond stabbing" I'm also glad that the most knife wounds that you saw were from a folding knife. But even an inexperienced person stabbing someone in the neck with a butcher's knife can be deadly.

 

[JowGaWolf]

By the way I tried to pick out the least graphic examples. My point wasn't to prove which is more deadly. But to piggy back on a previous statement about being able to deploy a weapon. The accuracy of a weapon doesn't mean squat if you can't deploy it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Dirty Dog
That's reality. There's no hollywood in it. Unexpected people have been knocked out with one punch when they were knowingly attacked:

There is a world of difference between "can" and "will". The vast majorities of these attacks do NOT result in anything remotely resembling immediate incapacitation.

2nd. If a person comes behind you and slices the vein in your neck, what makes you think you'll be in any condition to fight them off long enough to shoot them, remember you attacker knows you have a gun, now you are bleeding from your neck and you have to struggle to pull your gun out of your holster. You are also put in a situation where you have to defend against knife attacks while trying to grab your gun from your holster.

Cutting someones throat is not nearly as rapidly lethal as Hollywood would have you believe.

3rd. If a person smashes a brick to your skull what makes you think that the damage would be less than someone sucker punching you in the face?

Doesn't need to be less. I've been sucker punched. Didn't knock me out. Last guy that did it did manage to break my nose. But when other staff arrived, it wasn't me that was unconscious.

Now lets keep it real. The day that I saw the guy with the gun, he had no idea I was staring at his gun,

Really? You're a mind reader? That's really the only way you could possibly know what he was aware of.

and thinking of how many things could be done to him to not only injure him, but also prevent him from drawing his gun. All of this was within half an arms reach from him. That's what I do as a normal self-defense exercise. I try to find weaknesses and identify strengths which is how I spotted his gun in the first place. It may seem like I'm the criminal minded one, but I didn't know who that guy was, if he was there to use the gun, or if he was criminal. The only thing I knew was that the best attack to deal with him would be a surprise attack and that any successful attack would have to also focus on making sure that couldn't remove the gun from the holster.

Odd way of thinking. Personally, I can't recall ever trying to figure out how I'd attack someone. I've certainly spent tons of time thinking how I'd respond if THEY attacked, but never how I would attack.

I thought we were discussing self-defense. Not the best way to mug someone.

If you know a person has a gun, then the best attack is a surprised attack. Proof of that

I'm not a mugger, so I don't need to worry about how to attack people.

Many people think stabbing is the most efficient way to use a knife but if you have ever done weapons training with a knife then you would see that stabbing is the last thing that's going to happen.

Stab wounds are far less messy, but far more lethal, than cuts.

[Remaining instructions how to most effectively assault some innocent person deleted.]

 

[JowGaWolf]

Dirty Dog
Stop assuming. Never assume what someone "will" or "can" do. I don't know how many times I've heard over the past 2 years how friends and family never thought the person they knew would ever do such a horrible act.
Thinking about how to attack has nothing to do with being a mugger. Knowing how to attack and thinking about attacking is a natural part self-defense, especially if some stranger has a concealed gun around you.

In terms of self-defense, You are most likely fail in defending yourself if you don't know where to attack and how to attack before the conflict starts. You may not think about how to attack someone, but people who are in the military think about the best way to attack, Martial arts is almost entirely based on the best way to attack and defend. Boxing is the same way.

In terms of a gun fight, as the original post refers to. Knowing where to attack and how to attack with the gun before the conflict starts is more important than the accuracy of a gun. Knowing where to attack could mean that the gunfight is indoors or outdoors, close quarters or open space, are the attackers in a moving vehicle or behind defenses. Knowing how to attack can range from something a simple as removing the safety, loading a round, aiming, or breaching capability such as what SWAT teams do. There are so many factors that have to be considered and everything doesn't ride on just accuracy.

As for the knife discussion, I don't want to hijack this thread even though I still have lots to say about your responses.
So back to the original post.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I wouldn't bring myself to a gun fight or knife fight lol.

Me neither. But the thing is, usually the fight comes to you not the other way around.

But in all seriousness. I was in the store one day and this guy walked by me with with a concealed gun and I knew he probably feels safe, but the reality of it was:
1. I saw the gun
2. If I had knife or brick and attacked first then his gun would have been totally useless.
I think someone mentioned that the effectiveness of a weapon is based on one's ability to deploy it during the conflict.

He needs to get better at concealing if he is going to carry a concealed weapon. Printing can get you in trouble and in some cases you can lose your carry license. Sure, you could take him down with a knife or brick or your bare hands if you attacked first and had the element of surprise. As you said, it depends on the person's ability to deploy the weapon, their skill with the weapon, and it also depends on how alert they are.

I'm just glad that most people who do attack with knives really don't know how to use the knives beyond stabbing and those who attack with guns usually don't have a well thought out plan beyond pulling the trigger. In terms of being able to survive. I definitely would have better chances of escaping a knife attack (provided that I see it before the first stab attempt), than I would a gun.

There is more to knife fighting than stabbing and there's more to gun fighting than pulling the trigger. As it is, people tend to think of knives and especially guns as magic wands without realizing that it takes knowledge and skill to effectively use either of them.

With a knife my chances of survival increases with distance, but with a gun, my only chances to fight back is being within my grabbing range any thing beyond my range means I'll have to move around like a monkey and hope that the person can't shoot straight or that they really don't want to shoot me. The only thing that would give me a fighting chance is to have a gun and better aim.

True enough.

 

[Chrisoro]

Me neither. But the thing is, usually the fight comes to you not the other way around.

No, it doesn't.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Well then what about a grenade launcher then....remember almost only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades

Nah, also counts in atom bombs, you can miss by a mile ... still counts.

 

[Hudson69]

I like the idea of a rifle, they are just too hard to conceal in summer.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I like the idea of a rifle, they are just too hard to conceal in summer.

There are options...

I lived in Spain for three years in the days of Generalissimo Franco. Spain under a dictator was...different...

The Guardia Civil in those days wore a uniform that included a short cape. Which did a fine job of concealing the full auto weapons they carried. Mostly the Uzi, which is, admittedly, fairly small anyway.

 

[ballen0351]

UOTE="JowGaWolf, post: 1719816, member: 33903"]Dirty Dog
That's reality. There's no hollywood in it. Unexpected people have been knocked out with one punch when they were knowingly attacked: What makes you think a gun would have made a difference in these attacks?

because there are WAY more cases of people not getting knocked out then the sensational stories put on the news. They generally dont report "guy gets punched and does not fall down" Now would a gun make a difference prob not since most of these attacks are hit and run and its generally frowned upon to shoot people that run away

2nd. If a person comes behind you and slices the vein in your neck, what makes you think you'll be in any condition to fight them off long enough to shoot them, remember you attacker knows you have a gun, now you are bleeding from your neck and you have to struggle to pull your gun out of your holster. You are also put in a situation where you have to defend against knife attacks while trying to grab your gun from your holster.

Well I know an officer that was shot in the neck who was able to chase the guy down and beat him. The officer did not shoot him back because the officer said he didnt know he was shot he thought he just got punched. I responded to a domestic incident where the woman had her throat slit with a butcher knife by her husband. She was able to fight him off and run away. Shes alive and well now. You dont drop dead just because your cut. As for pulling a gun from a holster I carry a lvl 3 retention holster and can draw it very quickly and your closes enough to stab me so I dont even need to aim to hit you.

3rd. If a person smashes a brick to your skull what makes you think that the damage would be less than someone sucker punching you in the face?

Ive been hit with a brick in the back of the head, and a bottle, and a chair (Bottle and chair were during the same fight in a bar only a few seconds apart) other then a small scar I wasn't knocked out. Ive seen people hit with bats, hammers,rocks even shot in the head and not get knocked out.

Now lets keep it real. The day that I saw the guy with the gun, he had no idea I was staring at his gun, and thinking of how many things could be done to him to not only injure him, but also prevent him from drawing his gun. All of this was within half an arms reach from him.

NO lets keep it real. you think he had no idea, you think he wasnt coming up with plans in his head on how to defeat you as well? Do you believe your the only one that has situational awareness and plays the "what next game" in your mind

That's what I do as a normal self-defense exercise.

So so alot of other people

A gun is not a guarantee that you can defend yourself from a surprise attack. If you know a person has a gun, then the best attack is a surprised attack. Proof of that

What did that prove? She stabbed him it didnt work he gained distance and drew his gun[/QUOTE]