Ideal Karate Style

[futomaki]

Greetings all,
I am looking to take up a Karate system that is composed of the handwork of Boxing, the kicks of Kyokushin, and the throws and chokes of Judo/Jujitsu. Can anyone help a total noob identify which style(s) best match those criteria?

Thanks !!

 

[terryl965]

I first would like to say welcome to Martial Talk and then on to your question, I do not believe in a style more so the instructor. To me a great instructor will out do most any style. So where do you live what part of the country so we can help you out.

 

[exile]

Just to second Terry's post, it really has to do with your instructors, and their interpretation of the karate toolkit (or that of any other MA, for that matter).

A couple of point occur to me.

• Karate itself has its own handwork which is every bit as devastating as boxing, if you train for close quarter combat the way boxers do. The resources are there in abundance—you might be interested in the story of Choki Motobu here. But you have to train close in techs very sincerely to be effective, and that's where boxers' training shines out: they accept that they are going toe-to-toe and will be in range of devastating punches. If karateka train with the same expectations, they can be at least as effective.
  
• Karate's kicks differ from those of the KMAs in several respects; unlike TKD's, for example, there seems to be little emphasis on very high power open-hip strikes intended to damage the attacker enough to take them out of the fight. But those kicks are (in the minds of a lot of KMAists, anyway) most effective when delivered low, where karate's kicks tend to be aimed just as a matter of course. A compromise might be to study Tang Soo Do with an instructor interested in realistic applications to street defense; TSD has a full range of effective Korean-style kicking weapons, but also emphasizes hand techs in a big way, and along lines familiar to karateka. TKD also has those techs, but few dojangs train them to the same degree; I'm lucky to be in one that does. Again, it's the instructor who is going to determine how all this plays out.
  
• Karate has plenty of grappling techs (take a look at Iain Abernethy's Karate's Grappling Methods and Throws for Strikers: the Forgotten Throws of Karate, Boxing and Taekwondo if you need any convincing). A lot of the early karate pioneers, such as Funakoshi and Egami, were quite upfront about this. Those techs linger on in the thinking of Okinawan teachers probably more than in most of the Japanese styles, but Abernethy does Japanese karate, so clearly at least some devotees of those styles are aware of what's there along those line (though the application is more to set up finishing strikes, as a rule, than to use the locks, pins and throws themselves to finish the fight, as I understand it). But again, clearly, it's the instructor who makes the difference.

If I were you, I'd visit a few karate dojos and KMA dojangs and see how they work. Consider Tang Soo Do and Hapkido schools in your calculations. Talk about just these things you've indicated are important to you with the school instructors. Really, there's no other way to do it...

 

[arnisador]

I am looking to take up a Karate system that is composed of the handwork of Boxing, the kicks of Kyokushin, and the throws and chokes of Judo/Jujitsu. Can anyone help a total noob identify which style(s) best match those criteria?

Wado-ryu isn't a bad match for the latter two, but I don't think any Karate style literally has boxing-style punches except possibly an American style. Sounds like you want MMA (mixed martial arts).

I would certainly agree that you're best off finding an instructor who suits you rather than searching for a style. If the answer was a single best style, we'd all be doing it.

 

[exile]

If the answer was a single best style, we'd all be doing it.

I wish I had more room on my sig line—If I did, I'd definitely quote that in.

 

[Brian S]

Karate has great techniques that can be trained for good self defense. I believe most karate styles cover what you are looking for. What you need to do is forget about style and seek out a good instructor that incorporates what you want in his training. Good luck!

 

[NW_Tengu]

Futomaki,

If you are using the term karate refering to an okinawan or a few select Japanese MA, then a good traditional instructor is your best bet. You can referance old karate publications circa the 50's and 60's to see the techniques that alot of modern karateka have seem to forgotten.

If you are using the term karate as a generic ter for Martial Arts, then I would suggest Hapkido (a personal fav), or KravMaga. Again, a good instructor is a must.

 

[Cirdan]

I think what you are looking for is either a traditional Karate school that practices throws and locks (Wado is good, strong JJ influence) or a Ju Jutsu school with a strong striking game. Karate and Ju Jutsu are both a huge mixed bag so you should check out a few places before making your decision.

 

[Martin h]

Some of kyokushins offshots comes to mind.

Shidokan is kyokushin+thaiboxing +judo. It has both boxing like handwork and choking. In the west, most shidokan dojos train heavily for MMA. It even has trad karate kata, although Im not sure how much they train them outside japan.

Ashihara karate is baically kyokushin +judo throws and the occasional choke. They are not really into ground grappling, but you will see some in there. The thing they lack from your list is boxing like handwork. They train and fight very similar to kyokushin. As with kyokushin though, there are a lot of dojos that crosstrain.

There is always Daido juku. They are kyokushin + judo. They are also certifiably insane, competing with everything from headbutts and groinkicks to chokes and submissions. They no longer use the name karate, calling themselve "Kudo" (as a name both for their competition format and their art) since a couple of years.
They are hard to find, but very good.

 

[Grenadier]

Greetings all,
I am looking to take up a Karate system that is composed of the handwork of Boxing, the kicks of Kyokushin, and the throws and chokes of Judo/Jujitsu. Can anyone help a total noob identify which style(s) best match those criteria?

Thanks !!

There are many excellent styles of Karate. In general, though, what you're probably looking for, is a probably a system that combines both hard and soft techniques.

Wado Ryu is such a system, since Ohtsuka Shihan created this style by infusing much of his Shintoyoshinryu Ju Jutsu with the Shotokan Karate he learned from Funakoshi.

Other systems you may want to try include Shorin Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Goju Ryu, or Shuri Ryu. All of these systems blend both hard and soft techniques, and at the higher levels, teach more of the grappling moves.

Before you have your mind set on a particular style, though, always visit the dojo, and see how classes are conducted. Just because a particular style is supposed to encompass mostly hard striking techniques, that doesn't necessarily mean that they won't teach you soft techniques as well. In my experiences, I've seen several Shotokan Karate schools that used lots of soft techniques, and seen some Wado Ryu schools put more of a focus on hard striking techniques, than what their style would normally encompass. Some people call it innovation, others call it deviation.

To me, it's not wrong either way; it's just that you should let your own eyes be the judge of what you may think is right for you.

 

[twendkata71]

daido juku, UFC fighting in a gi. interesting, but why wear the head gear? Its like you can mess up the rest of the body, but don't mess up the face or the hair. Still it looks very effective.

 

[futomaki]

Hey guys, thanks for the warm welcome and the pointers. I am particulaly interested in the Daidojuku, however a couple of questions come to mind... first, does it allow standing chokes/submissions, and secondly, how would you rate it in terms of street effectiveness? Seems their focus is mainly on full-contact tournaments, so naturally I'm wondering if they encompass things like knife defense in their curriculum. Or does that also depend on the instructor?

I'm in L.A. BTW

 

[twendkata71]

Sorry, as far as my research has found, there are no Daido Juku Kudo schools in North America, anywhere. None in Canada, and None in the USA. There are however loads of Ashihara,enshin, kyokushinkai, and Seido schools in the US. Probaby many in California. If you really want to study Daido Juku, you will probaby have to go to Japan or I saw somewhere that there are schools in Brazil.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I do not know how close you are to Eihachi Ota's dojo but here is his website: http://www.shorin-ryu.com/ he is one of the top shorin ryu instructors in the USA.

 

[Martin h]

Hey guys, thanks for the warm welcome and the pointers. I am particulaly interested in the Daidojuku, however a couple of questions come to mind... first, does it allow standing chokes/submissions, and secondly, how would you rate it in terms of street effectiveness? Seems their focus is mainly on full-contact tournaments, so naturally I'm wondering if they encompass things like knife defense in their curriculum. Or does that also depend on the instructor?

Standing chokes/submission? Yes, if you can pull it off,it is allowed.
Street effectiveness? against a unarmed opponent, yes, its very effective. Against a knife? no not so much -but then as my old jujutsu teacher used to say "the only effective unarmed defense against a knife is a to be a fast runner". If you are talking about street defense I suggest you go to KravMaga (provided you find a good school -there are a lot of very bad ones around).
But Daido juku train full contact against resisting opponents -and include a lot of things regarded as "dirty" under most rules, so it is very effective for most self defense situations. Not that it is perfect, any training geared to sportfighting will have its realism problems. But compared to the restrictive light-contact point fighting of the bulk of karate, with its restrictive targets allowed and "break after each hit" mentality, Daido juku is as real as it gets in a competative format.

Sorry, as far as my research has found, there are no Daido Juku Kudo schools in North America, anywhere. None in Canada, and None in the USA.

Apparently there was a daido juku dojo opened in NY a couple of months ago (or rather it converted to it), and there is a japanese kudo champion that has been sent there for a few years to get them (and the rest of the prospective daido juku dojos in the US) up and running.
There is also a dojo in Lexington North Carolina. That one is formally still not daido juku, but it will be in a few weeks. They are probably going to make it official when Azuma (the daido juku founder) will be holding a camp there next month.
There are a few other dojos about to switch to daido juku aswell, but the 2 mentioned are already a done deal so to speak.

 

[twendkata71]

I saw on their website where they were looking at starting a dojo in NYC. Apparently they use a lot of black belts from other styles that wish to switch.

 

[hogstooth]

Just to second Terry's post, it really has to do with your instructors, and their interpretation of the karate toolkit (or that of any other MA, for that matter).

A couple of point occur to me.

• Karate itself has its own handwork which is every bit as devastating as boxing, if you train for close quarter combat the way boxers do. The resources are there in abundance—you might be interested in the story of Choki Motobu here. But you have to train close in techs very sincerely to be effective, and that's where boxers' training shines out: they accept that they are going toe-to-toe and will be in range of devastating punches. If karateka train with the same expectations, they can be at least as effective.
  
• Karate's kicks differ from those of the KMAs in several respects; unlike TKD's, for example, there seems to be little emphasis on very high power open-hip strikes intended to damage the attacker enough to take them out of the fight. But those kicks are (in the minds of a lot of KMAists, anyway) most effective when delivered low, where karate's kicks tend to be aimed just as a matter of course. A compromise might be to study Tang Soo Do with an instructor interested in realistic applications to street defense; TSD has a full range of effective Korean-style kicking weapons, but also emphasizes hand techs in a big way, and along lines familiar to karateka. TKD also has those techs, but few dojangs train them to the same degree; I'm lucky to be in one that does. Again, it's the instructor who is going to determine how all this plays out.
  
• Karate has plenty of grappling techs (take a look at Iain Abernethy's Karate's Grappling Methods and Throws for Strikers: the Forgotten Throws of Karate, Boxing and Taekwondo if you need any convincing). A lot of the early karate pioneers, such as Funakoshi and Egami, were quite upfront about this. Those techs linger on in the thinking of Okinawan teachers probably more than in most of the Japanese styles, but Abernethy does Japanese karate, so clearly at least some devotees of those styles are aware of what's there along those line (though the application is more to set up finishing strikes, as a rule, than to use the locks, pins and throws themselves to finish the fight, as I understand it). But again, clearly, it's the instructor who makes the difference.

If I were you, I'd visit a few karate dojos and KMA dojangs and see how they work. Consider Tang Soo Do and Hapkido schools in your calculations. Talk about just these things you've indicated are important to you with the school instructors. Really, there's no other way to do it...

You took the words right out of my mouth. I agree with your assessment. Well said.