I was going to make a pithy comment

[CuongNhuka]

Don't take it so personally. There's nothing to get sick of. People just disagree.

I'm really not sure were to begin with all this... All I'm going to say for now is that it's mostly the constant "you are wrong because you are 18". It gets very old very fast. And it's insulting. Anyways, I'll get back to you on this.

 

[Makalakumu]

No, I am not the resident expert on Socialism. I'm just the only one here who has actually done something towards understanding Socialism, other then reading propaganda from the CIA/FBI.

You don't even know where the information comes from that you've read.

 

[Empty Hands]

I'm just the only one here who has actually done something towards understanding Socialism, other then reading propaganda from the CIA/FBI.

Oh, how special. Look, many of the rest of us here have read Marx and Engels, studied history, and some of us even live in Socialist countries. I've even been called bourgeios during political discussions in my time - unironically. Being a True Believer doesn't make you an arbiter of what is and what isn't socialism. Other people around here have insight too.

 

[Makalakumu]

I'm really not sure were to begin with all this... All I'm going to say for now is that it's mostly the constant "you are wrong because you are 18". It gets very old very fast. And it's insulting. Anyways, I'll get back to you on this.

I think you need to really be careful before you put yourself up on the cross in front of me. I don't care how old you are or how good your jesus christ pose is. Your ideas lack depth and need development. Maybe its because of your age, maybe not. I've seen old men babble like idiots too. And I've had children teach me a thing or two.

I will say this...you are on a crusade and you don't even know what you are crusading for! There is more to socialism then meets the eye. You really need to think about whether or not you trust the people in the government to represent your interests. This is not happening in our country right now...

...and I can't wait for you to join the Marines. Please keep posting and making me happy!

So, anyways, consider my thoughts. I did not develop the eugenics portion to the extent that it needs to be emphasized because I didn't have time, but that is an integral part in understanding WHY the elite WANT socialism. They think you are scum. They think you are dirt. Untermensch. They think that you don't know what's best for you. Remember, they are the apogy of human evolution...

 

[Cryozombie]

I'm just the only one here who has actually done something towards understanding Socialism, other then reading propaganda from the CIA/FBI.

Ahem. Um... well, since you are such an expert, maybe you can help me. Can you explain to me what Marx was talking about when he thought Economists were in error regarding their views of the value of surplus? I'm a bit fuzzy on his meanings there...

Also when he said Capitalist societies are nothing more than immense hording cof commodities... what is that supposed to be a warning against? It wasn'tr clear to me...

 

[MJS]

Is it possible that some could know more on a topic than others? Absolutely. Is it possible that opinions will vary? Yes. That being said, if someone makes a comment, be sure that you can back it up with solid proof, otherwise someone is going to call you on it. If someone does call you on it, try to discuss things in a civil fashion. Being able to take criticism is part of life.

 

[Sukerkin]

I'm really not sure were to begin with all this... All I'm going to say for now is that it's mostly the constant "you are wrong because you are 18". It gets very old very fast. And it's insulting. Anyways, I'll get back to you on this.

I'm not sure where that impression got gleaned from, Cuong. Ammittedly I just read through the above very quickly so I might have missed it.

If personal insult is taken where none is meant and reactions are made in-thread (rather than via RTM) according to what you think you heard, then things are going to spin-out pretty quickly.

Then it's Mod-slaps all round and locked threads and noone gets to have a conversation about anything. It's even been mooted that the whole Political Discussion arena will get closed if there isn't a general return to decent behaviour as MJS spoke about above.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Ahem. Um... well, since you are such an expert, maybe you can help me. Can you explain to me what Marx was talking about when he thought Economists were in error regarding their views of the value of surplus? I'm a bit fuzzy on his meanings there...

Also when he said Capitalist societies are nothing more than immense hording cof commodities... what is that supposed to be a warning against? It wasn'tr clear to me...

Did I not just say 'I'm not an expert on Socialism'. Did I NOT just say that? I think I did. But let's see what I can do with this.

By 'value of surplus', I assume you mean Surplus Value, in which case I refer you to this quote by Karl Marx:
"If the exchange-value of a product equals the labour-time contained in the product, then the exchange-value of a working day is equal to the product it yields, in other words, wages must be equal to the product of labour. But in fact the opposite is true. Ergo, this objection amounts to the problem, -- how does production on the basis of exchange-value solely determined by labour-time lead to the result that the exchange-value of labour is less than the exchange-value of its product? This problem is solved in our analysis of capital"
Wikipedia has a good article on Surplus Value.

I think the 'warning' is about how in Capitilistic countries do little other then collect goods. And for that matter, those goods tend to get collected by a small amount of the population. I think there was a reason Marx called that 'Material Fetishism'.

Sukerkin, the person who gave me the impression that I'm inferior is Big Don and Twin Fist. Because, they both all but said I'm stupid because I'm 18. Several times. I'm not putting myself on a cross, I'm saying 'this is why I'm all defensive'.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

No, I am not the resident expert on Socialism. I'm just the only one here who has actually done something towards understanding Socialism, other then reading propaganda from the CIA/FBI.

Define 'control industry' and we can go from there. But, if all you want is to argue, then you can bugger off. I will not argue with people.

Well, quite fankly, if you mean that two people who take opposing sides to an issue and they have a lively back and forth of argument / counter-argument in order to further understanding, then yeah, I did come here to argue.

But I tend not to try to get into witty ripostes with people. If you have followed any of my posts, you will very easily recognize that.

But what I am referring to is this: can you give an example of a modern, industrialized, socialist country where the decision making of industry (in general) was held by the people at large, rather then a select few in the government.

 

[MJS]

In case ya'll forgot about this...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64840

Folks, this is the internet. We're all talking to each other from various areas, therefore, we can't 'hear' what others are saying. That being said, things will be or may be lost in translation.

So, taking all that into consideration, I'll repeat...lets keep things civil. If you're getting frustrated, step away from the keyboard, take some deep breaths, relax and then try again. I'll also note that the number of RTMs that are being generated from various study threads is on the rise. Before threads are locked and people are given some time to chill, I think it'd be good to settle down a bit.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Well, quite fankly, if you mean that two people who take opposing sides to an issue and they have a lively back and forth of argument / counter-argument in order to further understanding, then yeah, I did come here to argue.

But I tend not to try to get into witty ripostes with people. If you have followed any of my posts, you will very easily recognize that.

But what I am referring to is this: can you give an example of a modern, industrialized, socialist country where the decision making of industry (in general) was held by the people at large, rather then a select few in the government.

Britian, Switzerland, and New Zealand are some good examples. The Welfare states in North Europe are also an example. Russia under Lenin was an example. After that, the government stopped being legit, and the whole thing collapsed. It is also important to note that state control is only one of a few possiblities under Socialism. Marx said that Socialism would cause the workers to control industry, so state control is only one of many ways to do this.

And by 'argue' I mean, if you're going to base your return on 'you're 18, so you don't know what you're talking about' or 'I'm right because I say I'm right', or anything like that, then I'm not going to talk to you. To me, that is argument. What you described is discussion. Which is cool.

 

[jks9199]

I'm really not sure were to begin with all this... All I'm going to say for now is that it's mostly the constant "you are wrong because you are 18". It gets very old very fast. And it's insulting. Anyways, I'll get back to you on this.

You don't even know where the information comes from that you've read.

Oh, how special. Look, many of the rest of us here have read Marx and Engels, studied history, and some of us even live in Socialist countries. I've even been called bourgeios during political discussions in my time - unironically. Being a True Believer doesn't make you an arbiter of what is and what isn't socialism. Other people around here have insight too.

Let me throw an observation in here; I don't mean it to be as one-sided as it's ending up sounding. That's just a matter of point of view.

CoungNhuka has the energy and enthusiasm of youth -- and also the concomitant lack of experience with the real world. He's read about socialism, communism, and the rest, but he hasn't really seen anything but the current highly charged -- but hardly different from each other -- two party republic of the US. I hope that he'll have the chance during his service as a Marine to see some other parts of the world, and to see how things are in other places.

At the same time, youthful exuberance doesn't make him automatically wrong or uneducated. He does often mistake book learning for experience, but I've been guilty of that particular folly myself over the years. And some of us are indeed guilty of disregarding his statements because of his youth and idealism (yes, that does include me). But it also doesn't help his arguments when he pulls the TRUE BELIEVER WHO'S SO MISUNDERSTOOD or the "you're dissing me because I'm young" card.

Because the socialist and communist economic models, along with the liberal/conservative dynamic, became highly politicized in the US, these topics get highly charged. They also got confused with each other in many ways... Lots of people automatically assume liberal = socialist and conservative = capitalist. They don't; there are conservatives who would like to see a more socialist economy or socialized medicine even and liberals who are avowed capitalists.

To me, socialism as an economic model is doomed to failure for the simple reason that it ignores the reality of human motivation. We just ain't ideal creatures, and most of us won't settle merely for what they need, while seeing someone else get more. Lots of us want as much as we can get... and a few of us don't care what it does to someone else for us to get as much as we want.

 

[CuongNhuka]

To me, socialism as an economic model is doomed to failure for the simple reason that it ignores the reality of human motivation. We just ain't ideal creatures, and most of us won't settle merely for what they need, while seeing someone else get more. Lots of us want as much as we can get... and a few of us don't care what it does to someone else for us to get as much as we want.

You do know that Marx had a doctoral degree in law (minoring in history I think). He and Engels spent quite a bit of time studying history, human behaviour, economics, and the like. These were not stupid men, and they did not create a flawed theory. The reason why people seem to think it will always fail is because they think that Socialism and Communism is what we were fighting in the Cold War. The USSR (post-Lenin) never made any real attempt to create a more Socialistic state. China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, they are all the same.
For a truely Socialist State to exist, the government would have to regulate industry (possibly control, or have the workers control it), provide services to the people, and (this is were it get's really importent) the government must be controlled by the people. 'Workers of the world unite!' the conclusion of that unity is the people contolling the government. Sounds like the central principle behind Democracy. Are you going to say that is flawed also? They are both based on the same principle, you know (people control the government).

On a side note, I'm not 'pulling a card' I have actually been told that I do not know what I'm talking about, mostly because I'm 18. Big Don literally said so.

 

[Sukerkin]

Let that last part lie, now. Doing your laundry in public will more than likely lead to it becoming an issue that spreads beyond what is warranted.

An important reminder to all members is that the Moderating team do see what goes on and takes what action is necessary. Believe me, I wasn't aware of just how much work gets done behind the scenes until I was asked to share the load.

If any of you have a genuine problem, then RTM it. Don't be tempted to "have it out" in thread or sneakily nip at other users as revenge.