I need to say my piece

[kailat]

As I rummage through this forum daily, I am constantly seeing everyone's expression of surviving a knife encounter be it from a grappling, standing, surprise, behind the throat ATTACK!!

As I have so many mixed emotional and reserved feelings about the majority of these techniques I watch clips, i read threads on what to do, what not to do in these situations. It seems as everyone or every style is trying to re-invent the wheel when it comes to edged weapon conflict.

The simple truth is just that "K.I.S.S." (Keep it simple stupid) as in all self defense. Why does martial arts try to consitently come up with endless counters for counters or returns and such that will obviously get one killed if anyone was to ever use these techniques?

One thing I do within my group to stay sharp is train knife training every single class we do. WE DO FULL CONTACT knife sparring. ANd u know what? From the newest to the most skilled "EVERYONE GETS CUT NO MATTER WHAT" If it were real no one would ever leave class alive!

SIMPLE RULES TO FOLLOW WHEN CONFRONTED BY A KNIFE!

A) always be aware of your surroundings and never be in that situation to begin with.

B) the term "defang the snake" is probaly the best rule ever taught that does not get enough credit. DESTROY THE LIMB, PROTECT YOUR VITALS and chances are you'll survive.

C) expect to get cut, even more than once. TRAIN to minimize that cut to less than lethal areas on your body.

D) find an equalizer if at all possible, shirt, coat (wrapped on forward arm) rolled newspaper, any object that equals the playing field immedietly.

E) ALWAYS ATTACK THE EYES, THROAT, GROIN.. Cant see/can't fight, Can't breathe/can't fight Can't stand/Can't fight!!

From all the things i've learned and trained these are the things that I've experienced in training and in real life that at all cost will work ALWAYS..

If you have to take a cut to your arm/hand to save a slash accross the throat, SO BE IT.. If you have to guide a lunge thrust to the rib to protect your lower abdomen being slashed or heart punctured than so be it.. U do what you have to, to survive... I can always get stitches, I don't wanna have my guts laying in my hands!!!

So why am i writting this? Because one thing we need to be training our students is EXPECT TO GET CUT, if you survive an edged attack unscathed, luck is probably on your side moreso than skill....

A seasoned knifer won't hesitate to cut to kill you and know just how to do it, because he's done it before!!

Someone who is just trying to intimidate you and pulls a knife on you because he is just too scared to get beat up, is just as dangerous because his actions will be mistakes.. But your chances of survival are much better...

thank you for letting me rant!!!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Rant much appriciated

Someone who is just trying to intimidate you and pulls a knife on you because he is just too scared to get beat up, is just as dangerous because his actions will be mistakes.. But your chances of survival are much better...

thank you for letting me rant!!!

Interesting.

Although I do not fence I have heard something similar form a few I have meant that do. The most dangerous person in a fencing class is a newbie with no experience what-so-ever

 

[michaeledward]

I was having a conversation yesterday with a black belt candidate. We spent about an hour reviewing the five knife techniques in our system.

The lesson I have heard, and hope that I never need to actually learn is ...

The winner of a knife fight is the one who leaves alive.

... that is more than enough for me to do everything I can to avoid all fights. Even if only one fight in twenty deals with a weapon; that rule and those odds are not good.

 

[still learning]

Hello, If the sitution raises quickly and you have only you arms and hands to protect you?

Better to get cut on the back of your arms than the inside.....HOW?

Keep your palms facing you and back of your arms facing out...it may feel strange at first? ...but where would you like to get cut? ...not the veins? hands are opening too..
Try this? for knife defense....we do...........Aloha

 

[thardey]

And a well said piece it is . . .

 

[arnisador]

Lots of good advice there!

 

[kailat]

One thing that someone needs to consider when training a blade, tap drills, passing drills, dissarm drills are all well and good and they serve a purpose but if you cannot put those skills to test in training at full combat speed your not going to understand the proficiency of a knife. And better yet that of the one weilding the knife.

PUT a full contact helmet on your partner and gve him an ALUMUNUM training knife not some flimsy rubber thing. (depending on your comfortability of training and safety) and then go at it. Go 30sec and if you have more than one person to goo thru do that and tally your skill.

Once you put a helmet on you can attack the face/head w/ force therefore the game changes a bit. WHen you are limited in training and you play you attack me game but I cannot take my aggression out to stop you at all cost, well the disadvantage is yours.

U WILL FIGHT HOW U TRAIN!! just my humble opinion here folks

Thanks

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

One thing that someone needs to consider when training a blade, tap drills, passing drills, dissarm drills are all well and good and they serve a purpose but if you cannot put those skills to test in training at full combat speed your not going to understand the proficiency of a knife. And better yet that of the one weilding the knife.

PUT a full contact helmet on your partner and gve him an ALUMUNUM training knife not some flimsy rubber thing. (depending on your comfortability of training and safety) and then go at it. Go 30sec and if you have more than one person to goo thru do that and tally your skill.

Once you put a helmet on you can attack the face/head w/ force therefore the game changes a bit. WHen you are limited in training and you play you attack me game but I cannot take my aggression out to stop you at all cost, well the disadvantage is yours.

U WILL FIGHT HOW U TRAIN!! just my humble opinion here folks

Thanks

Even better get some marking knives with white clothes on to show you where you got cut. Definately a real eye opener.

Here are some IRT practitioner's working just that!
http://brianvancise.wordpress.com/page/3/

Good thread Kailat!

 

[Bodhisattva]

As I rummage through this forum daily, I am constantly seeing everyone's expression of surviving a knife encounter be it from a grappling, standing, surprise, behind the throat ATTACK!!

As I have so many mixed emotional and reserved feelings about the majority of these techniques I watch clips, i read threads on what to do, what not to do in these situations. It seems as everyone or every style is trying to re-invent the wheel when it comes to edged weapon conflict.

The simple truth is just that "K.I.S.S." (Keep it simple stupid) as in all self defense. Why does martial arts try to consitently come up with endless counters for counters or returns and such that will obviously get one killed if anyone was to ever use these techniques?

One thing I do within my group to stay sharp is train knife training every single class we do. WE DO FULL CONTACT knife sparring. ANd u know what? From the newest to the most skilled "EVERYONE GETS CUT NO MATTER WHAT" If it were real no one would ever leave class alive!

SIMPLE RULES TO FOLLOW WHEN CONFRONTED BY A KNIFE!

A) always be aware of your surroundings and never be in that situation to begin with.

B) the term "defang the snake" is probaly the best rule ever taught that does not get enough credit. DESTROY THE LIMB, PROTECT YOUR VITALS and chances are you'll survive.

C) expect to get cut, even more than once. TRAIN to minimize that cut to less than lethal areas on your body.

D) find an equalizer if at all possible, shirt, coat (wrapped on forward arm) rolled newspaper, any object that equals the playing field immedietly.

E) ALWAYS ATTACK THE EYES, THROAT, GROIN.. Cant see/can't fight, Can't breathe/can't fight Can't stand/Can't fight!!

From all the things i've learned and trained these are the things that I've experienced in training and in real life that at all cost will work ALWAYS..

If you have to take a cut to your arm/hand to save a slash accross the throat, SO BE IT.. If you have to guide a lunge thrust to the rib to protect your lower abdomen being slashed or heart punctured than so be it.. U do what you have to, to survive... I can always get stitches, I don't wanna have my guts laying in my hands!!!

So why am i writting this? Because one thing we need to be training our students is EXPECT TO GET CUT, if you survive an edged attack unscathed, luck is probably on your side moreso than skill....

A seasoned knifer won't hesitate to cut to kill you and know just how to do it, because he's done it before!!

Someone who is just trying to intimidate you and pulls a knife on you because he is just too scared to get beat up, is just as dangerous because his actions will be mistakes.. But your chances of survival are much better...

thank you for letting me rant!!!

The only only only realistic knife defense training I've ever seen is Karl Tanswell of Straight Blast Gym International. His STAB program is realistic, and he's put it to use as a highly paid full time bodyguard.

The stuff they taught me in Kali was crap. Grabbing a man by his knife arm with one arm is ridiculous.

Anyone really intersted in suriviving a knife encounter should check out his video.

http://www.karltanswell.co.uk/index...art&page=shop.browse&category_id=6&Itemid=128

First response to a knife attack: Run.

Can't run?

Second response to a knife attack: Get BOTH HANDS on the weapon arm, and watch to make sure your opponent doesn't switch hands.

To learn the rest, you'll have to buy the knife defense dvd's.

 

[Bodhisattva]

I was having a conversation yesterday with a black belt candidate. We spent about an hour reviewing the five knife techniques in our system.

The lesson I have heard, and hope that I never need to actually learn is ...

The winner of a knife fight is the one who leaves alive.

... that is more than enough for me to do everything I can to avoid all fights. Even if only one fight in twenty deals with a weapon; that rule and those odds are not good.

Easily one of the MOST SENSIBLE responses I've seen on this subject on any forum.

 

[thardey]

One thing that someone needs to consider when training a blade, tap drills, passing drills, dissarm drills are all well and good and they serve a purpose but if you cannot put those skills to test in training at full combat speed your not going to understand the proficiency of a knife. And better yet that of the one wielding the knife.

PUT a full contact helmet on your partner and gve him an ALUMUNUM training knife not some flimsy rubber thing. (depending on your comfortability of training and safety) and then go at it. Go 30sec and if you have more than one person to goo thru do that and tally your skill.

Once you put a helmet on you can attack the face/head w/ force therefore the game changes a bit. WHen you are limited in training and you play you attack me game but I cannot take my aggression out to stop you at all cost, well the disadvantage is yours.

U WILL FIGHT HOW U TRAIN!! just my humble opinion here folks

Thanks

That's what we do - we use fencing helmets - it completely changes the game when you can aggressively stab and slash at the eyes and neck. We don't use aluminum blades, but we use "sof-stx" they have a rigid core, but are padded, so you'll feel the thrust, and actually "parry" with the blade. I mean, it's strong enough to, not that I really recommend trying to parry with that short of a blade.

We practice knife dueling, for that stuff - knowing how to use the weapon makes it easier to know what's happening if you get caught without one. It's happened a few times that I've had the knife stripped, or knocked out of my hand. We don't stop, I have to keep going empty-handed and disarm my opponent. Of course, he has no reason to hold back, either. I've been successful at times, and have gotten cut at times. But the simplest is always the best. Usually when my opponent loses his blade, he runs. I haven't caught him yet.

 

[MA-Caver]

Personally I think the most dangerous knife fight is where the blade isn't seen, i.e. resting along the inside of the wrist.
But training is good, training is essential. One would expect more blades to come into fighting scenarios as the right to bear arms (in this country) are being slowly whittled away.
What I've observed however, is that a lot of people, A LOT of people really don't know how to fight (properly and effectively) with blades. Watch any of those groups that recreate ancient times and fight with their padded weapons and you see a bunch of swinging and bashing going on, no true forms or techniques, just a lot of "trying to hit the guy". Same would go with knives. There'll be a lot of stabbing motions and slashing movements which are more out of desperation in hopes of hurting the person.
One in training needs to be aware of that. Not all (knife) attackers are going to act as your (trained) sparring partner did in the dojo. And, there may not always be just one (knife) attacker.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Personally I think the most dangerous knife fight is where the blade isn't seen, i.e. resting along the inside of the wrist.
But training is good, training is essential. One would expect more blades to come into fighting scenarios as the right to bear arms (in this country) are being slowly whittled away.
What I've observed however, is that a lot of people, A LOT of people really don't know how to fight (properly and effectively) with blades. Watch any of those groups that recreate ancient times and fight with their padded weapons and you see a bunch of swinging and bashing going on, no true forms or techniques, just a lot of "trying to hit the guy". Same would go with knives. There'll be a lot of stabbing motions and slashing movements which are more out of desperation in hopes of hurting the person.
One in training needs to be aware of that. Not all (knife) attackers are going to act as your (trained) sparring partner did in the dojo. And, there may not always be just one (knife) attacker.

Absolutely and picking up the subtle clues to an attack without the knife showing is essential. We talk and I demonstrate how someone might pull something out regularly and what things you can look for. Even more important though is just to feel that iminent attack coming.

 

[thardey]

Personally I think the most dangerous knife fight is where the blade isn't seen, i.e. resting along the inside of the wrist.
But training is good, training is essential. One would expect more blades to come into fighting scenarios as the right to bear arms (in this country) are being slowly whittled away.
What I've observed however, is that a lot of people, A LOT of people really don't know how to fight (properly and effectively) with blades. Watch any of those groups that recreate ancient times and fight with their padded weapons and you see a bunch of swinging and bashing going on, no true forms or techniques, just a lot of "trying to hit the guy". Same would go with knives. There'll be a lot of stabbing motions and slashing movements which are more out of desperation in hopes of hurting the person.
One in training needs to be aware of that. Not all (knife) attackers are going to act as your (trained) sparring partner did in the dojo. And, there may not always be just one (knife) attacker.

Very good points. But at least way we do get full-speed sparring. (Our techniques are an extention of our fencing, BTW, old Italian and Spanish stuff.)

Absolutely and picking up the subtle clues to an attack without the knife showing is essential. We talk and I demonstrate how someone might pull something out regularly and what things you can look for. Even more important though is just to feel that iminent attack coming.

Absolutely. Knowing how to duel is pointless if you're surprised and don't have your knife already out. Even if my knife (or gun) is on me, it's not in my hand, and should have been, if I was being aware. If I get surprised, though I'm going to have to deal with it empty-handed, until I can buy an opportunity to draw my own weapon. And that takes precious time.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

As I rummage through this forum daily, I am constantly seeing everyone's expression of surviving a knife encounter be it from a grappling, standing, surprise, behind the throat ATTACK!!

As I have so many mixed emotional and reserved feelings about the majority of these techniques I watch clips, i read threads on what to do, what not to do in these situations. It seems as everyone or every style is trying to re-invent the wheel when it comes to edged weapon conflict.

The simple truth is just that "K.I.S.S." (Keep it simple stupid) as in all self defense. Why does martial arts try to consitently come up with endless counters for counters or returns and such that will obviously get one killed if anyone was to ever use these techniques?

One thing I do within my group to stay sharp is train knife training every single class we do. WE DO FULL CONTACT knife sparring. ANd u know what? From the newest to the most skilled "EVERYONE GETS CUT NO MATTER WHAT" If it were real no one would ever leave class alive!

SIMPLE RULES TO FOLLOW WHEN CONFRONTED BY A KNIFE!

A) always be aware of your surroundings and never be in that situation to begin with.

B) the term "defang the snake" is probaly the best rule ever taught that does not get enough credit. DESTROY THE LIMB, PROTECT YOUR VITALS and chances are you'll survive.

C) expect to get cut, even more than once. TRAIN to minimize that cut to less than lethal areas on your body.

D) find an equalizer if at all possible, shirt, coat (wrapped on forward arm) rolled newspaper, any object that equals the playing field immedietly.

E) ALWAYS ATTACK THE EYES, THROAT, GROIN.. Cant see/can't fight, Can't breathe/can't fight Can't stand/Can't fight!!

From all the things i've learned and trained these are the things that I've experienced in training and in real life that at all cost will work ALWAYS..

If you have to take a cut to your arm/hand to save a slash accross the throat, SO BE IT.. If you have to guide a lunge thrust to the rib to protect your lower abdomen being slashed or heart punctured than so be it.. U do what you have to, to survive... I can always get stitches, I don't wanna have my guts laying in my hands!!!

So why am i writting this? Because one thing we need to be training our students is EXPECT TO GET CUT, if you survive an edged attack unscathed, luck is probably on your side moreso than skill....

A seasoned knifer won't hesitate to cut to kill you and know just how to do it, because he's done it before!!

Someone who is just trying to intimidate you and pulls a knife on you because he is just too scared to get beat up, is just as dangerous because his actions will be mistakes.. But your chances of survival are much better...

thank you for letting me rant!!!

Every single time we work knives (alot) Sensei starts with "Expect to get cut. If you don't, great! But expect to get cut."

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

Since I have been doing Pekiti Tarsia, my knife defense, even Jujutsu based techniques have gotten alot better.

The FMA group I train with useds headcages and laccrosse gloves and uses wooden, plastic or aluminum knives, because pain is a great teacher.

 

[stabpunch]

In Hakarac we train empty hands against knife...

The guy with the training blade wears a head guard and we try to box them. Good deal, because you get to smash the guy with the plastic knife.

Bad deal...

thank the clouds above the blade isn't real.

Marking blade or pen is fun yes. It does increase awareness.

For me i look to secure the limb with the weapon and turn off the computer controlling said limb.
That is based on my training and fighting style, what you chose will be different.
Every situation is different. Threat demand or murder.

ouch what's that wet stuff who's bleeding oh it's me and i've just been cut another three times... Murder

 

[Imua Kuntao]

As I rummage through this forum daily, I am constantly seeing everyone's expression of surviving a knife encounter be it from a grappling, standing, surprise, behind the throat ATTACK!!

As I have so many mixed emotional and reserved feelings about the majority of these techniques I watch clips, i read threads on what to do, what not to do in these situations. It seems as everyone or every style is trying to re-invent the wheel when it comes to edged weapon conflict.

The simple truth is just that "K.I.S.S." (Keep it simple stupid) as in all self defense. Why does martial arts try to consitently come up with endless counters for counters or returns and such that will obviously get one killed if anyone was to ever use these techniques?

One thing I do within my group to stay sharp is train knife training every single class we do. WE DO FULL CONTACT knife sparring. ANd u know what? From the newest to the most skilled "EVERYONE GETS CUT NO MATTER WHAT" If it were real no one would ever leave class alive!

SIMPLE RULES TO FOLLOW WHEN CONFRONTED BY A KNIFE!

A) always be aware of your surroundings and never be in that situation to begin with.

B) the term "defang the snake" is probaly the best rule ever taught that does not get enough credit. DESTROY THE LIMB, PROTECT YOUR VITALS and chances are you'll survive.

C) expect to get cut, even more than once. TRAIN to minimize that cut to less than lethal areas on your body.

D) find an equalizer if at all possible, shirt, coat (wrapped on forward arm) rolled newspaper, any object that equals the playing field immedietly.

E) ALWAYS ATTACK THE EYES, THROAT, GROIN.. Cant see/can't fight, Can't breathe/can't fight Can't stand/Can't fight!!

From all the things i've learned and trained these are the things that I've experienced in training and in real life that at all cost will work ALWAYS..

If you have to take a cut to your arm/hand to save a slash accross the throat, SO BE IT.. If you have to guide a lunge thrust to the rib to protect your lower abdomen being slashed or heart punctured than so be it.. U do what you have to, to survive... I can always get stitches, I don't wanna have my guts laying in my hands!!!

So why am i writting this? Because one thing we need to be training our students is EXPECT TO GET CUT, if you survive an edged attack unscathed, luck is probably on your side moreso than skill....

A seasoned knifer won't hesitate to cut to kill you and know just how to do it, because he's done it before!!

Someone who is just trying to intimidate you and pulls a knife on you because he is just too scared to get beat up, is just as dangerous because his actions will be mistakes.. But your chances of survival are much better...

thank you for letting me rant!!!

I agree with your thoughts, some instructors like others to believe they know ,ore by having so many counters-recounters-counter recounters. You have a good method and is good for everybody
Thanks for your post.

 

[Ahriman]

What I think is missing here is that the knifer has other limbs as well. We sometimes do rather intensive knife practice. My partners don't really like when I'm the situational attacker, as would they catch my hand, I usually kick out their legs - and show them just how easy would it be to break their knees instead of just making them collapse without major damage. Other reason of this dislike is that I attack like a madman... and continue with stabs, cuts, fists, elbows, knees, headbutts until I succeed or they can kill me. That last possibility occurs when we ignore attacker hits and later analyse real-life effects.
...
Aluminium trainers are fun as long as you don't go full contact. I broke a few forearms and wrists and shins with an ultra-light, extra-padded practice longsword when some idiot wanted to spar full contact with me, without protective equipment. AND I wanted to be careful. I could say that in caring I succeeded - those broken bones could have easily been at their necks or at joints. Or for that, their windpipe...
...
Conclusion of my bit chaotic post: a determined and prepared attacker most likely WILL kill you on spot. A less determined and less prepared attacker most likely will at least cut you several times, which may kill you a few minutes later. Even an absolutely unprepared attacker can maim you. Training only serves as a chance to increase your chance.
And one more thing... you can't be really careful at full contact. Wear protection. Or prepare to be sooner or later maimed at least or dead.

 

[Dwight McLemore]

After I sorted through all the 'cheast thumping' this is some pretty sound advice. Particularly this:
Absolutely and picking up the subtle clues to an attack without the knife showing is essential. We talk and I demonstrate how someone might pull something out regularly and what things you can look for. Even more important though is just to feel that iminent attack coming.

When it's all said an done a lot more time should be devoted to this and of course the draw.

Cheast protectors should be added too if your using thrusts with Alluminum Trainers and of course good protective gloves. Got to be careful throwing people into the full contact business too early before they are comfortable with the blade.

My Best
Dwight