I need help writing a dissertation on the origins of Okinawan Karate

[hoshin1600]

I should have been more clear. Possible "influence", not source. There are NO kung fu styles in existence today that match Okinawan karate. NONE, there have been several trips to China and no one has come up with any katas/forms that match as a direct translation. This is why it is felt that whatever Higaonna and Uechi learned was a combination of things and no set style.

In regards to Sanchin, it used to be used as a floor exercise. It didn't matter if you started on the left or the right side and you would just continue to walk up the floor, turn and go back the other way. Both Higaonna and Uechi taught it very similar from how it is described in sources. Miyagi did close the fists and changed the breathing pattern in the kata. Also, Miyagi removed the turns and added the backwards steps because there wasn't the opportunity for students to practice moving backwards, but plenty of turn in other kata.

I am not sure what you mean by the elaborate ending in the Ngo Cho Kuen Sanchin. Just having the elbow strikes and punches?

I agree with most of what you said, I just have a slight different take on it. Is okinawan Sanchin a combination of a few styles? It's a good possibility however Kanbun stated many times that he did not change anything from the way he was taught. He was adamant about passing on the art exactly the way he was taught. Now if I combine that fact with the fact that two other arts from a different source look dam near identical, I would have to say the mash up would be from the Chinese not the Okinawans.
When I eluded to "elaborated ending" I am referring to the differences between the Okinawan sanchin and the multiple versions of Chinese sanchin forms. All three okinawan versions do single arm thrusts, 3 double arm thrusts and Tora guchi. While most Chinese forms don't stop there. Usually there are more blocks, strikes and other moves that I have no idea what they are..lol... then end with the Tora guchi. These extra moves tend to be done with less dynamic tension and at a different tempo. And I find it interesting that every different school has different moves but maintain the foundation of the double thrust strikes.
As far as Miyagi doing backward stepping, yeah the official story is the he invented the backward stepping in order to have students develop those muscles ...yatta yatta yatta. But since it is almost universal within the Chinese versions I think it's more like he saw it while in China and decided to adopt the practice. He could have also learned it from Kanryo but then one would have to ask, why he didn't teach it sooner. This is just my take on it and I'm open to new interpretations if the facts lead in that direction.

 

[punisher73]

I agree with most of what you said, I just have a slight different take on it. Is okinawan Sanchin a combination of a few styles? It's a good possibility however Kanbun stated many times that he did not change anything from the way he was taught. He was adamant about passing on the art exactly the way he was taught. Now if I combine that fact with the fact that two other arts from a different source look dam near identical, I would have to say the mash up would be from the Chinese not the Okinawans.
When I eluded to "elaborated ending" I am referring to the differences between the Okinawan sanchin and the multiple versions of Chinese sanchin forms. All three okinawan versions do single arm thrusts, 3 double arm thrusts and Tora guchi. While most Chinese forms don't stop there. Usually there are more blocks, strikes and other moves that I have no idea what they are..lol... then end with the Tora guchi. These extra moves tend to be done with less dynamic tension and at a different tempo. And I find it interesting that every different school has different moves but maintain the foundation of the double thrust strikes.
As far as Miyagi doing backward stepping, yeah the official story is the he invented the backward stepping in order to have students develop those muscles ...yatta yatta yatta. But since it is almost universal within the Chinese versions I think it's more like he saw it while in China and decided to adopt the practice. He could have also learned it from Kanryo but then one would have to ask, why he didn't teach it sooner. This is just my take on it and I'm open to new interpretations if the facts lead in that direction.

I am in agreement that what was learned in China was a combination of things for Kanbun and Kanryo and not a set style. I think it is why there is no "parent style" that can be traced in China and no names given by either as to what was actually learned.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am in agreement that what was learned in China was a combination of things for Kanbun and Kanryo and not a set style. I think it is why there is no "parent style" that can be traced in China and no names given by either as to what was actually learned.

It sounds (to my otherwise uninformed mind) like there was a style/system - as we might define it today - but it either didn't have a separate name (some guy just teaching what he knew) or that name was lost. But that might be the same thing you're saying, just in different words.

 

[punisher73]

It sounds (to my otherwise uninformed mind) like there was a style/system - as we might define it today - but it either didn't have a separate name (some guy just teaching what he knew) or that name was lost. But that might be the same thing you're saying, just in different words.

I would agree with that. Any discussion about Higaonna and Uechi has always been in terms of the "parts" of the styles they learned, but with the same base 3 kata: Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiryu (speculation on if Uechi left before learning the 4th kata, Suparenpei, that Goju has or if what he learned didn't have it in the system) I think that the "parts" were systematized in a set learning approach. That is the big question though. Kanbun Uechi's certificate was for "Pangai Noon" which is half hard, half soft and Miyagi named what Higaonna learned "Goju" meaning Hard/Soft. I don't think it was a coincidence. Higaonna was illiterate so there were no written records left by him, and Uechi didn't say anything else about what he learned as to if it had a formal name or not. I think another key piece overlooked is Juhatsu, founder of To'on Ryu. He was Higaonna's other top student and has the "big 4" of Goju-Ryu, but doesn't have the other 8 kata that Goju-Ryu does which leads to speculation that the additional kata were NOT a part of what HIgaonna learned in China, but could have been creations of Miyagi.

 

[hoshin1600]

I once asked Ryuko Tomoyose about the similarities between uechi and goju. (While he was a Uechi 10th dan I believe he also studied goju when he was younger) his reply was that in China uechi was known as pangainoon and goju was known as Kingainoon.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I once asked Ryuko Tomoyose about the similarities between uechi and goju. (While he was a Uechi 10th dan I believe he also studied goju when he was younger) his reply was that in China uechi was known as pangainoon and goju was known as Kingainoon.

Any idea what those terms mean?

 

[Gaucho]

View attachment 22288

Yes, that's a great old photograph. Front row, second from the left: a young Bruce Lee. Back row, third from the left, me.
.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Yes, that's a great old photograph. Front row, second from the left: a young Bruce Lee. Back row, third from the left, me.
.

Back row, 3rd from the left is Ed Parker. Front row on the right looks like Jhoon Rhee. Back row on right looks like Robert Trias.

 

[Buka]

Back Row, Allen Steen, George Mattson, Ed Parker, Tsutomu Ohshima, Robert Trias, front row, Pat Burleson, Bruce Lee, Anthony Mirakian, Jhoon Rhee.

 

[hoshin1600]

View attachment 22342

Back Row, Allen Steen, George Mattson, Ed Parker, Tsutomu Ohshima, Robert Trias, front row, Pat Burleson, Bruce Lee, Anthony Mirakian, Jhoon Rhee.

I know I might have told this story before but my ex ( who was a Uechi black belt, but not very knowledgeable about MA in general. Came home from work one day saying that there was this guy at her work in another department who says he does karate too. He says he's like a 10 dan or something ppfffttt. She didn't belive him. She handed me his business card that says
Anthony Mirakian, 10th dan Miebukan USA. I almost pooped myself.