I need a BJJ Translator

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well I was originally told that there were some Solid Jow Ga solutions but when I asked I just got everything but Jow Ga. If there is a Jow Ga solution or even just a Kung Fu solution, then I want to use that. If none exists, then I will need to either invent one (ain't happening) or to use a solution from another system (BJJ).

I may just go straight to the head of the Jow Ga Organization to see if he has or knows someone who has the knowledge that I'm looking for. He might be willing to share that information or point me to someone who has that information.

I have my doubt that one exists. There may be jow ga solutions that can handle bjj white or blue belts, but that would be the extent of it.

This is a martial art that ignores (mostly) every other aspect of martial arts beyond the ground game. And focuses purely on figuring out how to make the ground game as good as possible, which is an aspect of martial art that is incredibly nuanced/niche. And there's no reason for another art to focus on it, unless they're involved in the ground game to begin with. Expecting it to have predicted the over-development of a ground game that 99.99% of martial artists would never have predicted would be needed, and that remaining .01% would just focus on how to avoid being taken down, is a fools errand.

That said, regardless of striking, grappling, weapons or ground grappling, martial arts principles stay the same. Learning BJJ and finding where it the principles jow ga matches is probably your best bet. Then either incorporate them into jow ga or (which I would recommend just based on your statements of the politics involved of jow ga) create a new version that includes this, you can have jow ga fight against anyone including bjj specialists.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I agree with MTW’s analysis above, but I’ll add that for self defense purposes, if you have a solid foundation in a stand-up martial art, you don’t need to study the full BJJ curriculum to cover your bases on the ground.

A lot of time in BJJ is spent on passing the guard, applying submissions, and defending against submissions. You don’t need that, except maybe in the most rudimentary fashion. Your goal is to defend yourself from strikes if you end up on the ground, escape from bad positions, and get back to your feet safely. You aren’t looking to stay on the ground and apply a lock or choke. And realistically, it’s highly unlikely that anyone is ever going to jump out of a dark alley, pull guard, and hit you with an armlock. So unless you are competing in MMA or submission grappling or getting into challenge matches with BJJ practitioners, you don’t need worry about dealing with that scenario.

If I were to put together a basic self-defense oriented “ground fighting for stand up fighters” curriculum it would cover the following:

• Standup clinch fighting and takedown prevention
• Falling safely
• Avoiding common pins (side control, mount, headlock, kesa gatame, back control)
• Escaping those common pins (nothing fancy, just a couple of fundamental escapes for each position)
• Using open guard with feet on hips to defend against strikes from a standing opponent
• Using closed guard to defend against strikes from a kneeling opponent
• Making space and standing up safely from both of those guards
• Possibly one or two sweeps from guard to make more opportunities for standing up safely
• Basic defenses against the guillotine choke and rear naked choke, since those are pretty much the only submissions that an untrained or minimally trained person is likely to be dangerous with.

This is all white belt material. (Although it can require more than a white belt level of skill to reliably execute against a bigger opponent who is on top of you trying to smash your face.)

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The only CMA I’ve ever seen with an actual tradition of ground fighting (as opposed to something just invented by a modern instructor to say “we have an answer to BJJ”) is Dog Boxing.

I’ve watched all the footage I can find of Dog Boxing, although I haven’t met any practitioners in person. Based on the available video, my judgment is that

1. It has some legitimate techniques and tactics
2. Those techniques are not as refined as the repertoire of BJJ, Judo, wrestling, Sambo, or MMA.
3. I suspect that most of the instructors demonstrating Dog Boxing in the videos don’t have a lot of actual experience using the techniques in sparring or fighting. They know how to move their own bodies well, but they are missing subtle details on how to make the techniques work against a competent opponent. (There may be instructors who have that experience, but I haven’t found video of them yet.)

In general, ground fighting just doesn’t seem to have been a focus for most traditional CMA, any more than it has been for western boxing, Muay Thai, or Karate.

None of the CMA I’ve ever learned had any actual ground fighting techniques that I’m aware of. It’s a problem that is usually answered with solutions for not going to the ground, but no real answers for what to do when you do end up there. BJJ is a great answer in my opinion. Tim Cartmell went that route and it seemed to suit and serve him well.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I agree with MTW’s analysis above, but I’ll add that for self defense purposes, if you have a solid foundation in a stand-up martial art, you don’t need to study the full BJJ curriculum to cover your bases on the ground.

A lot of time in BJJ is spent on passing the guard, applying submissions, and defending against submissions. You don’t need that, except maybe in the most rudimentary fashion. Your goal is to defend yourself from strikes if you end up on the ground, escape from bad positions, and get back to your feet safely. You aren’t looking to stay on the ground and apply a lock or choke. And realistically, it’s highly unlikely that anyone is ever going to jump out of a dark alley, pull guard, and hit you with an armlock. So unless you are competing in MMA or submission grappling or getting into challenge matches with BJJ practitioners, you don’t need worry about dealing with that scenario.

If I were to put together a basic self-defense oriented “ground fighting for stand up fighters” curriculum it would cover the following:

• Standup clinch fighting and takedown prevention
• Falling safely
• Avoiding common pins (side control, mount, headlock, kesa gatame, back control)
• Escaping those common pins (nothing fancy, just a couple of fundamental escapes for each position)
• Using open guard with feet on hips to defend against strikes from a standing opponent
• Using closed guard to defend against strikes from a kneeling opponent
• Making space and standing up safely from both of those guards
• Possibly one or two sweeps from guard to make more opportunities for standing up safely
• Basic defenses against the guillotine choke and rear naked choke, since those are pretty much the only submissions that an untrained or minimally trained person is likely to be dangerous with.

This is all white belt material. (Although it can require more than a white belt level of skill to reliably execute against a bigger opponent who is on top of you trying to smash your face.)

When is this seminar? I’m not joking one bit. This is truly a great idea! How many days would you need to cover this material?

 

[windwalker099]

This teacher adapts taiji movement
to the ground game.....

Note: The video demonstrates how some are adapting movements for ground game applications.
Personally not a fan of doing this, understand the necessity and practice for others.

 

[drop bear]

I have my doubt that one exists. There may be jow ga solutions that can handle bjj white or blue belts, but that would be the extent of it.

This is a martial art that ignores (mostly) every other aspect of martial arts beyond the ground game. And focuses purely on figuring out how to make the ground game as good as possible, which is an aspect of martial art that is incredibly nuanced/niche. And there's no reason for another art to focus on it, unless they're involved in the ground game to begin with. Expecting it to have predicted the over-development of a ground game that 99.99% of martial artists would never have predicted would be needed, and that remaining .01% would just focus on how to avoid being taken down, is a fools errand.

That said, regardless of striking, grappling, weapons or ground grappling, martial arts principles stay the same. Learning BJJ and finding where it the principles jow ga matches is probably your best bet. Then either incorporate them into jow ga or (which I would recommend just based on your statements of the politics involved of jow ga) create a new version that includes this, you can have jow ga fight against anyone including bjj specialists.

Look up folk wrestling.
The get points for standing back up. So their ground game is very stand back up focused.

And if you wanted it to be kung fu is.

Mongolian wrestling is legit

 

[Tony Dismukes]

When is this seminar? I’m not joking one bit. This is truly a great idea! How many days would you need to cover this material?

Kind of depends on how in depth you want to go, how experienced the students are, and whether you want to allow time for sparring.

With an audience of experienced martial artists, covering just the most basic applications, and not allowing time for sparring, I think I could fit all of that into 8 hours. So maybe a 2 day seminar, 4 hours per day. (I could speed-run through everything in a single day, but I don't think that would allow proper time for drilling, corrective feedback, and questions.)

Of course, I could do a full seminar on each of those topics if you wanted to explore them in more depth.

Getting functional ability in all of that requires months of regular sparring, ideally with training partners who have a bit of skill with grappling and ground-n-pound in order to expose at least the most blatant technical flaws.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In general, ground fighting just doesn’t seem to have been a focus for most traditional CMA, any more than it has been for western boxing, Muay Thai, or Karate.

I've seen the Dog Boxing videos, but I haven't looked it up recently. Most looked like take downs to me which is similar to the "Tangled leg" approach to collapse the legs or to tear the ligaments in the knees, It's not the struggle on the ground type of fighting that I'm looking for. Some of the techniques I wouldn't do in a sparring session. I'm not too keen on it because it appears to have a height restriction. If I can't drop between someone's legs then I'm screwed type thing.

The dropping to the ground is an issue as well. Grass and dirt may be fine but concrete is going to be a problem. Sometimes I think things like this were for people who were wearing Amor. I can see these techniques being used against a slower opponent but the only thing that would make a person slower would-be heavy clothing.
The backwards roll stuff is legit. I've done that while wrestling with someone. It's was more of an issue of "That was the quickest recovery direction, since I was heading that way." than it was of me starting the roll back on my own. I don't remember what my sparring partner was trying to get me with, but it made me feel like it was easier to roll back then to fight trying to be upright. I slipped out of it with no problem and could have entered with the crazy legs stuff. I think I was trying to get an arm lock, simiarl to this but I was still on my back. As soon as I felt the lift, I just rolled out of it. When I finished the rolled, I could have shot back in easily.

The leg swiping thing felt like the natural next thing to do, and now that I've typed all of this , I wonder if some fo the "Sliding Entries" aren't done from a standing position. I'll have to give that a try after my neck heals. But the leg twisting stuff I wouldn't do it. I like to experience techniques and when someone did it to me in a slow walk through, I could feel the stress in my knee. It's not as gentle as the demos look where the partner is just going with it.

I suspect that most of the instructors demonstrating Dog Boxing in the videos don’t have a lot of actual experience using the techniques in sparring or fighting.

Unfortunately this is true for a lot of Kung Fu.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It’s a problem that is usually answered with solutions for not going to the ground, but no real answers for what to do when you do end up there.

There has to be some kind of solution. No one can go through history without having a wrestling or ground game. Even sibling rough house and have to find ways to get off the ground.

I'm with you. "Prevent it from happening" isn't a real answer. That's like me saying that the way to deal with an accident is to prevent it from happening. Then when it happens, the answer is go wild lol. I'm fine with the answer being "I don't know" At least with that answer everyone can "dig through the crates" in search for one. vs just blowing it off.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I've seen the Dog Boxing videos, but I haven't looked it up recently. Most looked like take downs to me which is similar to the "Tangled leg" approach to collapse the legs or to tear the ligaments in the knees, It's not the struggle on the ground type of fighting that I'm looking for. Some of the techniques I wouldn't do in a sparring session. I'm not too keen on it because it appears to have a height restriction. If I can't drop between someone's legs then I'm screwed type thing.

The dropping to the ground is an issue as well. Grass and dirt may be fine but concrete is going to be a problem. Sometimes I think things like this were for people who were wearing Amor. I can see these techniques being used against a slower opponent but the only thing that would make a person slower would-be heavy clothing.

Yeah, the dropping to the ground approach is like pulling guard in BJJ. You can make it work, but I think it's usually a bad idea in most real fight contexts. I can come up with scenarios where it would be appropriate, but it's really situational. In general, if you take the fight to the ground then you want to be the person on top. All the guard techniques are a way to stay in the fight if you lose that initial battle to either stay standing or end up on the top.

(Dropping to the bottom is definitely not something that would be done deliberately in armor on the battlefield.)

The leg entanglements can be done safely in sparring if you know what you're doing. Without proper guidance it's asking for injuries. But in a self-defense scenario it generally works against the goal of getting back to your feet and getting away. You do see it used in MMA and submission wrestling as a threat to make the top person back out and give the bottom person room to get up. But in a street scenario the top person is unlikely to recognize the threat of a leg lock. So you end up both on the ground with your legs tangled and if the top person has a buddy running up to stomp your head it can be difficult to disengage in time.

The most useful material I've seen in the Dog Boxing videos are the sweeps from the bottom. I wouldn't go down to the ground in order to use them, but if you are already down due to a slip or a knockdown then they can be invaluable. My biggest concern, as previously mentioned, is that I think the instructors doing the demos don't have a lot of real sparring/fighting experience with those techniques. They don't seem to recognize the difference between high-percentage and low-percentage moves or understand some of the details that are necessary against a competent opponent who is fighting back.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Kind of depends on how in depth you want to go, how experienced the students are, and whether you want to allow time for sparring.

With an audience of experienced martial artists, covering just the most basic applications, and not allowing time for sparring, I think I could fit all of that into 8 hours. So maybe a 2 day seminar, 4 hours per day. (I could speed-run through everything in a single day, but I don't think that would allow proper time for drilling, corrective feedback, and questions.)

Of course, I could do a full seminar on each of those topics if you wanted to explore them in more depth.

Getting functional ability in all of that requires months of regular sparring, ideally with training partners who have a bit of skill with grappling and ground-n-pound in order to expose at least the most blatant technical flaws.

If I was going to travel for it I would be up for a week long.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If I was going to travel for it I would be up for a week long.

With a week long seminar, I could give people a solid foundation to build a practice on.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I've seen the Dog Boxing videos, but I haven't looked it up recently. Most looked like take downs to me which is similar to the "Tangled leg" approach to collapse the legs or to tear the ligaments in the knees, It's not the struggle on the ground type of fighting that I'm looking for. Some of the techniques I wouldn't do in a sparring session. I'm not too keen on it because it appears to have a height restriction. If I can't drop between someone's legs then I'm screwed type thing.

The dropping to the ground is an issue as well. Grass and dirt may be fine but concrete is going to be a problem. Sometimes I think things like this were for people who were wearing Amor. I can see these techniques being used against a slower opponent but the only thing that would make a person slower would-be heavy clothing.
The backwards roll stuff is legit. I've done that while wrestling with someone. It's was more of an issue of "That was the quickest recovery direction, since I was heading that way." than it was of me starting the roll back on my own. I don't remember what my sparring partner was trying to get me with, but it made me feel like it was easier to roll back then to fight trying to be upright. I slipped out of it with no problem and could have entered with the crazy legs stuff. I think I was trying to get an arm lock, simiarl to this but I was still on my back. As soon as I felt the lift, I just rolled out of it. When I finished the rolled, I could have shot back in easily.
View attachment 32514

The leg swiping thing felt like the natural next thing to do, and now that I've typed all of this , I wonder if some fo the "Sliding Entries" aren't done from a standing position. I'll have to give that a try after my neck heals. But the leg twisting stuff I wouldn't do it. I like to experience techniques and when someone did it to me in a slow walk through, I could feel the stress in my knee. It's not as gentle as the demos look where the partner is just going with it.


Unfortunately this is true for a lot of Kung Fu.

I love sweeps and iron post and leg tangling. I do a lot of leg drags and crimping using leg vs leg. I have some speculative fantasy that some of my skills might be useful in BJJ, but probably not without a couple years of work on basics.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

There has to be some kind of solution. No one can go through history without having a wrestling or ground game. Even sibling rough house and have to find ways to get off the ground.

I'm with you. "Prevent it from happening" isn't a real answer. That's like me saying that the way to deal with an accident is to prevent it from happening. Then when it happens, the answer is go wild lol. I'm fine with the answer being "I don't know" At least with that answer everyone can "dig through the crates" in search for one. vs just blowing it off.

I think “go wild” won’t work against a real BJJ player once they get me down. My only chance, as I see it is immediately disabling a hand, arm, foot, or knee so they can’t grapple as effectively. Even then, i need to do that asap, it isn’t any kind of guarantee.

 

[windwalker099]

Yeah, the dropping to the ground approach is like pulling guard in BJJ. You can make it work, but I think it's usually a bad idea in most real fight contexts.

Funny story...

A co-worker and I were taking a break from work in the afternoon at a sports bar that served food.
Empty at the time, except for us

We were talking about martial arts, and he mentioned that he was into BJJ and thought he could use it effectively against most other fighting styles.

He asked, "Would you like to try?" I said, "Yes."
He got down on the floor, on his back—not sure what the position is called. Smiling, he said, "Go for it."

I turned around and picked up a chair. He asked, "What are you doing?"

I told him, "I'm going for it." We both laughed, and he got up.

In modern sport venues, I feel it would be remiss not to familiarize oneself with at least a basic understanding of the ground game.

However, sometimes I feel that doing so can bias a practitioner towards using those arts, potentially losing the essence of their primary discipline—unless the objective is purely to win the match.

This is why, in some gyms, practices like MMA and Sanda are separated; they focus on different aspects and objectives.

David Chin, a. noted hop gar master used this approach in training his fighters..

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yeah, the dropping to the ground approach is like pulling guard in BJJ. You can make it work, but I think it's usually a bad idea in most real fight contexts. I can come up with scenarios where it would be appropriate, but it's really situational. In general, if you take the fight to the ground then you want to be the person on top. All the guard techniques are a way to stay in the fight if you lose that initial battle to either stay standing or end up on the top.

(Dropping to the bottom is definitely not something that would be done deliberately in armor on the battlefield.)

The leg entanglements can be done safely in sparring if you know what you're doing. Without proper guidance it's asking for injuries. But in a self-defense scenario it generally works against the goal of getting back to your feet and getting away. You do see it used in MMA and submission wrestling as a threat to make the top person back out and give the bottom person room to get up. But in a street scenario the top person is unlikely to recognize the threat of a leg lock. So you end up both on the ground with your legs tangled and if the top person has a buddy running up to stomp your head it can be difficult to disengage in time.

The most useful material I've seen in the Dog Boxing videos are the sweeps from the bottom. I wouldn't go down to the ground in order to use them, but if you are already down due to a slip or a knockdown then they can be invaluable. My biggest concern, as previously mentioned, is that I think the instructors doing the demos don't have a lot of real sparring/fighting experience with those techniques. They don't seem to recognize the difference between high-percentage and low-percentage moves or understand some of the details that are necessary against a competent opponent who is fighting back.

I know I have holes in my game so I would be looking to build a practice based on fixing that. A seminar like the one you described sounds like a great start and more practical for someone like me. I might be able to bring one of my training brothers too. Then we could take what we learn and teach our guys that want it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I love sweeps and iron post and leg tangling. I do a lot of leg drags and crimping using leg vs leg. I have some speculative fantasy that some of my skills might be useful in BJJ, but probably not without a couple years of work on basics.

Only one way to find out. Find a BJJ guy and see what positions he puts you in that feel like you can do the technique.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Funny story...

A co-worker and I were taking a break from work in the afternoon at a sports bar that served food.
Empty at the time, except for us

We were talking about martial arts, and he mentioned that he was into BJJ and thought he could use it effectively against most other fighting styles.

He asked, "Would you like to try?" I said, "Yes."
He got down on the floor, on his back—not sure what the position is called. Smiling, he said, "Go for it."

I turned around and picked up a chair. He asked, "What are you doing?"

I told him, "I'm going for it." We both laughed, and he got up.

In modern sport venues, I feel it would be remiss not to familiarize oneself with at least a basic understanding of the ground game.

However, sometimes I feel that doing so can bias a practitioner towards using those arts, potentially losing the essence of their primary discipline—unless the objective is purely to win the match.

This is why, in some gyms, practices like MMA and Sanda are separated; they focus on different aspects and objectives.

Chin Shifu, a. noted hop gar master used this approach in training his fighters..

I’ve been at my primary art for 27 years, I’m not likely to lose the essence of it by learning useful skills. I like to learn from anyone who has a skill set that I don’t have.

 

[windwalker099]

Only one way to find out. Find a BJJ guy and see what positions he puts you in that feel like you can do the technique.

Done that
Like most things it depends on the level...
Some of those I interacted with were unable to find a center or cause a brake in structure.
Not able to do so, what ever they were attempting to do didn't work..The same could be said for some Judo
guys I knew long ago..

Have said this, given time, I'm sure they would have figured it out....
Just as I would be probably lost on the ground..

A matter of context

"They have also been "tested" by many other groups in the park, as well as by many visitors from different counties with different forms of martial arts. One year, a member of Gracie’s family from Brazil visited the park. Respect was exchanged between the two parties and the agreement on the rules were made. After three short rounds of free style pushing, Gracie went home with dirt on his back."

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think “go wild” won’t work against a real BJJ player once they get me down. My only chance, as I see it is immediately disabling a hand, arm, foot, or knee so they can’t grapple as effectively. Even then, i need to do that asap, it isn’t any kind of guarantee.

I often tell people that BJJ is like quicksand because dealing with BJJ is like dealing with quicksand. Here's the answer that Copilot gave me about surviving quicksand.
"How do you survive quicksand if you fall in?
Ah, the classic quicksand dilemma! The key to surviving quicksand is to stay calm and avoid panicking."

This pretty much sums up BJJ for me. lol.