I am a Self-Taught MA Expert

[Jenna]

I want to ask is "self-taught martial art expert" a contradiction in terms or are there circumstances do you think under which it would be possible to become a martial art autodidact and teach oneself to fight for defence and/or sport?

We can all perhaps cite examples of persons in various endeavours that have achieved a level of expertise with little or no formal schooling in that endeavour.

Therefore aside from all the youtube MA wannabes that operate in their own video vacuums, do you think there are circumstances in which it is possible to train oneself to become expertin a martial endeavour? Is it possible perhaps by employing empirical "research" training methods over a suitable period of time? Or are empirical methods never any substitute for formal handed-down training?

Is it possible to generate fighting techniques from scratch by recursively defending oneself against attack in a training situation? Or would this in itself require sufficient martial grounding beforehand?

With sufficient refining on these techniques would it be possible to defend oneself against and/or defeat an opponent formally trained in a similar style martial art to your "new" style in which you have become a self-taught expert? Or will a trained fighter always beat a self-taught expert?

Thank you so much for your time and thought

Jenna xo

 

[Chris Parker]

Hey J,

Interesting.....

I want to ask is "self-taught martial art expert" a contradiction in terms or are there circumstances do you think under which it would be possible to become a martial art autodidact and teach oneself to fight for defence and/or sport?

In short, yes. At length, well, I'll cover that as we go, but briefly you are asking two different questions here: Can you teach yourself a martial art, and can you learn to fight without formally studying a martial art. I'll deal with the martial art side dominantly.

We can all perhaps cite examples of persons in various endeavours that have achieved a level of expertise with little or no formal schooling in that endeavour.

Therefore aside from all the youtube MA wannabes that operate in their own video vacuums, do you think there are circumstances in which it is possible to train oneself to become expertin a martial endeavour? Is it possible perhaps by employing empirical "research" training methods over a suitable period of time? Or are empirical methods never any substitute for formal handed-down training?

What makes something a martial art is far beyond the simple physical actions of generating violence on another person. If all they get from their empirical research is "techniques", then they are missing most of what the art actually is. For example, I have the entire curriculum for Yokohama Den Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu, and can passably run through a fair amount of such systems as Katori Shinto Ryu, Kashima Shinryu, Kiraku Ryu, and many more. However, all I know is how I interpret the techniques (for the most part), so I cannot claim to know the arts or systems themselves. All I can do is a hollow imitation of them. And that is the case with any form of etic (outside the culture, or in this case, martial art) research. Emic (inside the culture) is required to actually even begin to actually learn any of this.

Learning to fight, on the other hand, well, that's easy. Pick a rough bar, go up to the biggest guy there, and suggest that he improperly knows the next biggest guy there. Frequently. Next, check yourself out of hospital, and repeat until the last part is no longer required. Of course, that is just learning to fight, or defend yourself, and is far from learning a martial art...

Is it possible to generate fighting techniques from scratch by recursively defending oneself against attack in a training situation? Or would this in itself require sufficient martial grounding beforehand?

Again, you can learn (or, more realistically, develop) fighting skills in such a manner. If in a training situation as you suggest here (say, sparring for instance), the lack of real danger would actually make the process much longer than simply taking up a martial art in the first place.

With sufficient refining on these techniques would it be possible to defend oneself against and/or defeat an opponent formally trained in a similar style martial art to your "new" style in which you have become a self-taught expert? Or will a trained fighter always beat a self-taught expert?

I wouldn't quite go so far as to say "always", as there are certainly people out there who are genuinely naturally talented in this type of endeavour, but in 98% of situations (if this is within the construct of the established art, therefore a set of criteria such as rules for competitive bouts are established), I'm going with the guy that's genuinely schooled. He/she would have gotten better quicker, and be geared up for the environment this hypothetical situation is occuring in.

Thank you so much for your time and thought

Jenna xo

 

[Omar B]

I'm sure one can learn how to fight or be naturally gifted enough to defend yourself quite well. But the term "martial arts expert" denotes knowing an art totally from start to finish where there is nothing but physical prowess and some ideas about how things probably work mechanically.

Anybody can throw a ball, but it takes a good coach to make someone a major league pitcher. Natural talent only goes so far. Nobody would think they know enough about a single topic to suddenly decide to give himself the title "Professor."

 

[seasoned]

That is a tough one Jenna, and I'm sure you will get many detailed responses. IMHO, as martial artist, we train diligently toward that day we may have to defend ourself against some adversary. But, on the other hand, I have seen untrained, hard core, ruthless, street fighters worth their weight in pure guts. For the most part they have trained themselves, with hands on encounters. I feel it is possible to train yourself to fight excluding the art form, but impossible to learn an art form without proper guidance. By training yourself without this proper guidance, you become no more then the street fighter, I have mentioned above.

 

[mook jong man]

First you have to tell me what an autodidact is ?
I think I had to get one of them replaced in the car a few weeks ago.

People maybe able to perform some semblance of a technique from study of video etc.

But to be perfectly honest I'm still learning and improving on basic techniques I first learned twenty years ago , and I was taught in a proper school , with instructors spoon feeding me all the relevant points of the technique.

Every now and then a little wheel of a cog will turn in my head when I am teaching some thing or even just thinking about it , and it will add another aspect or dimension to the technique that I had never even thought of before.

So if the subject can go that deep how can they find out all the nuances of the technique from video , so yeah they maybe able to stop a punch .
But will it be with the level of finesse and relaxed energy expenditure that I can do it with , no I think not.

Because part of the learning is being on the receiving end and feeling how someone a lot better than yourself does the technique , too much of it based through feeling to be able to pick things up from video and books etc.

 

[Omar B]

au·to·di·dact

&#8194; <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/A08/A0829900" target="_blank"><img src="http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/speaker.gif" border="0" alt="autodidact pronunciation" /></a>&#8194;/&#716;&#596;

to&#650;&#712;da&#618;

dækt, -da&#618;&#712;dækt/ Show Spelled[aw-toh-dahy-dakt, -dahy-dakt] Show IPA
&#8211;noun a person who has learned a subject without the benefit of a teacher or formal education; a self-taught person.

 

[Disco]

Bet you can't say that fast 5 times........:lfao:

Now to the question.........I really don't know when or how or even why the "ART" aspect came into play, but from the very beginnings, it was about fighting/combat/self defense. But now I'll answer a question with a question...."who trained the first guy that started the whole thing in the first place"?...........

 

[WC_lun]

A person can be a natural or talented fighter without any training. Martial arts are a bit different than fighting though. Martial art styles are a systematic aproach designed to take the average person and give them the ability to defend themselves. While a person might be able to teach themselves a few things IF they have training partners, it is impossible to train oneself to an advanced or expert level. To do that takes experiencing martial arts physically with someone who can show you the way. How do you teach yourself something you do not know? In my mind it is analagous to a person being blind all thier life trying to imagine what a sunset looks like. They don't have the experience of sight to have a reference point.

 

[Omar B]

Though I would love to see the guy who claimed to learn judo or wrestling on his own ... or through the computer ... or from a video.

Ok, MA is something that needs you to interact with some, at least one person. At best you need an instructor and a training partner.

 

[mook jong man]

Bet you can't say that fast 5 times........:lfao:

Now to the question.........I really don't know when or how or even why the "ART" aspect came into play, but from the very beginnings, it was about fighting/combat/self defense. But now I'll answer a question with a question...."who trained the first guy that started the whole thing in the first place"?...........[/quote]

Chuck Norris

 

[Omar B]

We all know it's true. Chuck taught even the guys who taught him.

 

[mook jong man]

We all know it's true. Chuck taught even the guys who taught him.

Chuck even existed before the "Big Bang" in fact the "Big Bang" is just a distant cosmic echo from one of his roundhouse kicks.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I want to ask is "self-taught martial art expert" a contradiction in terms or are there circumstances do you think under which it would be possible to become a martial art autodidact and teach oneself to fight for defence and/or sport?

We can all perhaps cite examples of persons in various endeavours that have achieved a level of expertise with little or no formal schooling in that endeavour.

Therefore aside from all the youtube MA wannabes that operate in their own video vacuums, do you think there are circumstances in which it is possible to train oneself to become expertin a martial endeavour? Is it possible perhaps by employing empirical "research" training methods over a suitable period of time? Or are empirical methods never any substitute for formal handed-down training?

Is it possible to generate fighting techniques from scratch by recursively defending oneself against attack in a training situation? Or would this in itself require sufficient martial grounding beforehand?

With sufficient refining on these techniques would it be possible to defend oneself against and/or defeat an opponent formally trained in a similar style martial art to your "new" style in which you have become a self-taught expert? Or will a trained fighter always beat a self-taught expert?

Thank you so much for your time and thought

Jenna xo

One could be an experienced fighter, without any formal training. Martial Arts, however, are a codified system of study, and hence more formal than simply fighting.

Most of those who are 'Self-Taught MA experts', however, are Walter Mitty's. Those who are simply experienced brawlers likely wouldn't classify what they do as 'MA'.

 

[Jenna]

Wow thank you for these insights. I am grateful for your thoughts and expertise. I would love to post a video of someone self taught as an expert in a form - even their own - of martial art. I am still searching! Thank you all again for your contribution! Jenna xo

For example, I have the entire curriculum for Yokohama Den Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu, and can passably run through a fair amount of such systems as Katori Shinto Ryu, Kashima Shinryu, Kiraku Ryu, and many more. However, all I know is how I interpret the techniques (for the most part), so I cannot claim to know the arts or systems themselves.

What, in addition to repeated practice of refining your technique Christopher, would it take then to "know" the art?

Learning to fight, on the other hand, well, that's easy. Pick a rough bar, go up to the biggest guy there, and suggest that he improperly knows the next biggest guy there. Frequently. Next, check yourself out of hospital, and repeat until the last part is no longer required. Of course, that is just learning to fight, or defend yourself, and is far from learning a martial art...

Why Christopher? What is unique to our definition of martial arts, that the above scenario - repeated enough times to the theoretical limit - would be excluded? Imagine the above scenario were put to a less harmful recursive loop: theorise a defence, test that theory and refine the result. Would it not be possible through empirical methods to eventually given adequate time develop a "proper" codified system all to oneself? Thank you

Anybody can throw a ball, but it takes a good coach to make someone a major league pitcher

Would there be any situation Omar you could envisage whereupon a "natural talent" could, with enough empirical testing become a Major League pitcher? Or is that highly unlikely?

Though I would love to see the guy who claimed to learn judo or wrestling on his own ... or through the computer ... or from a video

Yes! I would too! I think unfortunately those engaged in this kind of activity are the hyper-stimulated game-addicted movie-believing youtube wannabes and not serious "empirical" researchers LOL And but yes I absolutely agree Omar with what you are saying. I am operating purely as devil's advocate in a case of unmitigated martial hypothesis. Thank you

but impossible to learn an art form without proper guidance

Is it purely physical pursuits that this applies to Wes? I would be thinking odd examples such as Steven Speilberg who dropped out of college yet whose art flourished regardless and David Bowie who I believe was never educated in any of his musical endeavours? I do not know of sportspeople yet I wonder is it possible to become an artist (martial artist) by ones own empirical research? Or is this unlikely? Thank you

But will it be with the level of finesse and relaxed energy expenditure that I can do it with , no I think not

I like that point. I think a mentor or guide would certainly expedite the "finessing" process that you mention mook jong man. I wonder would you with enough repetition figure out for yourself the most efficient dynamics of your art? Or would that never happen without the coaching? Thank you

In my mind it is analagous to a person being blind all thier life trying to imagine what a sunset looks like. They don't have the experience of sight to have a reference point.

I understand the reference WC_lun and but I do not know if that is analagous? I think the blind person no matter how many iterations of their attempts they perform will ever reveal the sunset to themselves of course. I wonder though if you train empirically to protect yourself from a centre punch will you eventually arrive at some form of bong sau for example as the most efficient way to defend that punch. Or will you never arrive at that conclusion independently of tuition and guidance? Thank you

who trained the first guy that started the whole thing in the first place

Disco yes that is clever! That is what I was thinking too when I thought of this thread! Is it possible that each of us could be that "first guy" should we so wish? Would we need a set of martial skills to begin with? Could we start from scratch and through reasonably safe empirical trial-and-error training divine our own system? Or is that impossible? Thank you

Martial Arts, however, are a codified system of study, and hence more formal than simply fighting

sgtmac_46 do you think that fighter can become a martial artist by refining of their existing technique? Ultimately does MA differ from fighting where the end result is one's own defence? What would you be unable to discern for yourself were you for example stranded on a hostile island needing to defend yourself against a fighting style you had not encountered? Apologies for the weirdness of the example Thank you

 

[Cryozombie]

however, are Walter Mitty's. .

"A Mitty". Haha, there is a term I haven't heard in a long while.

 

[Cryozombie]

."who trained the first guy that started the whole thing in the first place"?...........

In the fantasy world of my mind, I believe it went something like this.

"Say Bob, you are awfully quiet. Are you still thinking about that big battle yesterday?"
"Yes, Joe, I am. The strangest thing happened. This guy with a sword was cutting down at me suddenly from out of nowhere, and I had dropped my sword, and I moved, like this, and I was not killed!"
"Really? Wait, show me how that went?"
"Like this!"
"Holy cow! Do that again! Holy cow, that works! Hey but what if I attack like this, haha, got ya!"
"Yeah. But I think If I moved HERE..."
"Holy Cow, that worked! We need to teach that to the guys before the next battle!"

 

[Jenna]

In the fantasy world of my mind, I believe it went something like this.

"Say Bob, you are awfully quiet. Are you still thinking about that big battle yesterday?"
"Yes, Joe, I am. The strangest thing happened. This guy with a sword was cutting down at me suddenly from out of nowhere, and I had dropped my sword, and I moved, like this, and I was not killed!"
"Really? Wait, show me how that went?"
"Like this!"
"Holy cow! Do that again! Holy cow, that works! Hey but what if I attack like this, haha, got ya!"
"Yeah. But I think If I moved HERE..."
"Holy Cow, that worked! We need to teach that to the guys before the next battle!"

Cryo, in your fantasy did it happen after or did you stick around and see Joe plagiarising Bob's tech and copywriting it as Joe-jutsu?

 

[sgtmac_46]

Bet you can't say that fast 5 times........:lfao:

Now to the question.........I really don't know when or how or even why the "ART" aspect came into play, but from the very beginnings, it was about fighting/combat/self defense. But now I'll answer a question with a question...."who trained the first guy that started the whole thing in the first place"?...........

The 'first guys' were tribal elders, who survived combat and hunting forays and passed along hunting and combat skills via informal lessons to young warriors.

And as Cryo made clear in tongue-and-cheek fashion, it was almost certainly the result of very practical trial and error in both actual combat.......and to an even greater extent, ritualized tribal combat where young males developed skills in often bloody mock combat against fellow tribesman in order to attain manhood and develop their place in the tribe.

 

[bribrius]

Bet you can't say that fast 5 times........:lfao:

Now to the question.........I really don't know when or how or even why the "ART" aspect came into play, but from the very beginnings, it was about fighting/combat/self defense. But now I'll answer a question with a question...."who trained the first guy that started the whole thing in the first place"?...........

ding ding ding. we have a winner!!!!!!


the benefits you have from being taught is gaining the knowledge of multiple individuals along a long line of tradition.

The benefits of self taught is control over your own progress and not being limited to following any crede.

Many are probably combinations of the two.

http://www.villabrillelargusakali.com/?page_id=154

Escrima history perhaps for example. A primitive fighting method, turned more complex, returned to primitive so the layman could learn quicker in simpler forms, influenced by invading and immigrant forces, split many times in different paths and combinations and each person making it their own.

Then you learn one of the systems. You are learning from many, many people when you do this. However in that group are people that were instructed by a few, some maybe by one, and originally perhaps just one somewhere responsble for part of your system. so self taught, and taught, and gained through experience.

It may not be quicker being instructed, better or worse is subjective, but when instructed it is more than one person you are learning from, even if you have only one instructor...

you could come up with your own. How effective that is would depend on you, as a person and your experiences and ability to test it in real situation. It had to start somewhere..............

 

[searcher]

The question will become, "How do I know that the techniques I am working on are effective?" and "Who is going to call me expert?"

On the first, I suppose you would have to be willing to suffer through the pain of seeing if what you are doing will work or not. Then you are going to have to convince someone to learn from you and let them see if what you have formulated will work or not.


On the second, I am not sure anyone in your lifetime would call you an "expert." There are however exceptions to every rule and it COULD happen.