How Well...

[Chris Parker]

Oh, agreed. I just disagree that simulation is not preparation. After all, preparing is getting you ready for the experience, it is not meant to be the experience itself.

 

[5rings]

NO...
Sadly it does not contribute greatly towards preparing a sound Defense in the real world. Time is better spent sharping skills that deal with multiple attackers, edge weapon defense, over coming personal fears & use of force etc. Remember its your time & your life....live it intelligently!
Always try to think outside the Traditional box

 

[sgtmac_46]

do you feel that ring fighting prepares you for a confrontation in the real world?

This question was sparked by something that I read on another forum.

The Gladiator slaves previously fighting in the arena did pretty well against Roman Soldiers during the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Servile wars, even if they ultimately lost by shear virtue of being outnumbered and poorly supplied......they managed to kill a whole lot of Roman soldiers who were 'trained for the street' with the skills they learned in the 'ring'.

A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. The difference is mindset, but that's a double edged sword too. Someone used to getting punched won't freeze up when confronted with a punch, even if he's used to getting punched in the ring. I've heard arguments from both sides, but there seems to be a lot of peeing in the wind on the matter.

 

[sgtmac_46]

What kind of ring fighting? I'd think that UFC style ring fighting would prepare someone quite a better than Olympic TKD ring fighting. Boxing would probably be pretty good too, you'd learn how to give an take a hit. Even highschool or college wrestling would probably serve someone pretty well since you'd be competing against someone all out, no holding back (within the rules), that is going to be a lot better than non contact sparing would.

How well is 'prepared'? How do you score 'prepared'? Is a Navy SEAL 100% prepared, the stereotypical nerd 0%, non contact sparing 20%, boxing 50%, UFC 70%? Just throwing those out there, of course I have no way of backing up those numbers, just a SWAG.

Should be an interesting thread.

Good points........and in a hand to hand fight most Navy Seals would get their heads handed to them by an average MMA practioner........Seals are jack of all trades. Put a gun in his hand, it's a different outcome.

That is the only reason that someone who solely does MMA isn't as effective in the street.......the element of weapons and the mindset that needs to accompany dealing with surprise violence, versus a competition........but some folks erroenously believe that the kind of aggressive personality who engages in male hiearchial aggression is somehow inferior to some guy doing TMA or RBSD in a hand to hand fight........the reality is that the TMA guy or RBSD guy is desperately trying to learn skills to offset the natural advantage of the kind of aggressive individuals that enjoy engaging in male hiearchial aggression.

 

[sgtmac_46]

For the actual fight, that is once the fist start flying, I feel it helps alot.

BUT, there is alot more to a fight than the fight. It's what led up to the fight that matters more.

If you fail to see the indicators an assault is going to happen....

If you fail to keep them at a distance...

If you fail to take into account the other guy may sucker punch you...

If you fail to see his friend about to blind side you...

If you fail to see that gun/knife/club/chain....

Well if you fail any of those (and other things) then it don't matter what your training was at fighting cause you lost the fight before it started.

Deaf

All quite true.

At the same time, much of that is about reading others and controlling distance.........which is best learned by actually engaging in fighting where someone is trying to hurt you.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Prepared...well, I suppose that'll vary from person to person. For the sake of the thread, lets say that it means that you'll be able to survive an encounter in the real world. The person who made the comment in question, in his opinion, feels that if you're fighting MMA style, that it will prepare you better than someone that trains in a more traditional art. For the sake of the thread, we'll say that traditional falls into the category of Karate, TKD, Ninjutsu, etc.

Oh yes, far better.........A blend of wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ, with a sprinkling of a few other things is far superior in a physical confrontation than many pure traditional arts.

What we're really talking about is someones pure form versus a buffet where one takes what they want, and leaves the rest.........for street purposes we're not talking about MMA/UFC the sport, we're talking about applying JKD-esque eccletic blends together, as opposed to traditional purity.



Anyone who trains what works best for them, rather than someone else's 'way' is going to be better prepared.

 

[Brian King]

Now and then events in the ring can give a person the sense of some of the chaos that that a brawl presents, take tonight’s MMA show aired on national television as a tiny example.

Regards
Brian King

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Now and then events in the ring can give a person the sense of some of the chaos that that a brawl presents, take tonight’s MMA show aired on national television as a tiny example.

Regards
Brian King

Hey Brian,

That was interesting to watch it unfold.

 

[Brian King]

“Hey Brian,

That was interesting to watch it unfold.”

I was not able to watch it live which would have been nice to get a feel for the energy of the room but agree it was interesting to watch the clip Brian.


The body language (of the guy being interviewed after winning his fight) screamed that it was on. LOL saw that look-head tilt thing many times while working the door. The crowd getting in their free licks is also typical. Didn’t see anyone knocked out or submitted but did see some entanglements, head controls and the general grab a limb and hang on typical aftermath of these kind of educational beatdowns/brawls

Regards
Brian King

 

[5rings]

The Gladiator slaves previously fighting in the arena did pretty well against Roman Soldiers during the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Servile wars, even if they ultimately lost by shear virtue of being outnumbered and poorly supplied......they managed to kill a whole lot of Roman soldiers who were 'trained for the street' with the skills they learned in the 'ring'.

A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. The difference is mindset, but that's a double edged sword too. Someone used to getting punched won't freeze up when confronted with a punch, even if he's used to getting punched in the ring. I've heard arguments from both sides, but there seems to be a lot of peeing in the wind on the matter.

I think the gladiators had somewhat of an advantage over today's MMA practitioners, they were armed with the latest weapons. Still competition does have its place in practice as it heightens the level of stress involved, putting something on the line always makes it a little more difficult on the skill level, I think it was Jeff Cooper that mentioned this in one of his books somewhere.

 

[5rings]

Good points........and in a hand to hand fight most Navy Seals would get their heads handed to them by an average MMA practioner........Seals are jack of all trades. Put a gun in his hand, it's a different outcome.

That is the only reason that someone who solely does MMA isn't as effective in the street.......the element of weapons and the mindset that needs to accompany dealing with surprise violence, versus a competition........but some folks erroenously believe that the kind of aggressive personality who engages in male hiearchial aggression is somehow inferior to some guy doing TMA or RBSD in a hand to hand fight........the reality is that the TMA guy or RBSD guy is desperately trying to learn skills to offset the natural advantage of the kind of aggressive individuals that enjoy engaging in male hiearchial aggression.

I believe the question was "Do you feel that Ring Fighting prepares you for a real world confrontation?" I was assuming that not all practitioners outside of MMA practiced traditional arts. There are some practitioners that have traditional backgrounds but are multifacited and have addressed real world self defense dealing with multiple armed assailants. Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting down traditional arts nor am I neglecting the effectiveness of a proven MMA fighter, I'm just stating that in the real world an empty hand is a wasted opportunity. If I was held hostage in a bank take over I would prefer to have Seal Team Six show up rather than the MMA brothers, just makes more sense street wise.

 

[MJS]

Nothing can prepare you for a "real world" confrontation. No class, no style. MMA style training can help, like other things (RBSD, etc) can. The best you can do is simulate, and some things will simulate certain elements better than others will. MMA is great for getting one used to physical demands (mechanical accuracy, getting hit, etc), and RBSD is good for others (pre-fight awareness, non-competition tactics, etc).

Neither one is complete or better than the other. Just different.

Hmm, I'm not sure I'd entirely agree with that. I would say that there is nothing that will give you the experience except for the experience itself, but to say nothing prepares you is a little incorrect. That's like saying that all that study doesn't prepare you to be a doctor. So they do prepare you, but the question asked was "How well?" Think of it more like Army boot camp in terms of preparation, it's not exactly the same as being in a warzone, but it is preparation for what you will encounter.

LOL, I did indeed miss that. I stand corrected. That doesn't materially change my answer, though. Any type of training is only a simulation, and some are better in some aspects than others.

Good points on both sides. I think alot of it comes down to the mindset that is hopefully being drilled into the person(s) that are doing the training. An example: Quite a few years ago, I had the chance to try out the FATS (FireArms Training Simulator) that was at the PD I dispatch for. Obviously I knew that I wouldn't 'die' during the simulations, but the idea, is to put yourself into the proper mindset. The military does training drills like this as well. One of the schools I train at had a rank test today. Things were pretty fast paced. All of the attacks were done with the intent of really hitting the person, hard, if they didn't do something. Again, the idea of this was to hopefully condition the person to be a bit more relaxed, should they find themselves in the real situation.

I think the persons quote that sparked me to start this thread, was hinting that due to the way MMA guys fight/train, etc., that they'd be more prepared than those who dont take their training to that level. So yes, I may be inclined to agree with that, to a point, but obviously it only prepares you for that one thing...a 1 on 1 empty handed fight. Add something else into the mix, and IMO, things'll definately change.

 

[MJS]

I think the gladiators had somewhat of an advantage over today's MMA practitioners, they were armed with the latest weapons. Still competition does have its place in practice as it heightens the level of stress involved, putting something on the line always makes it a little more difficult on the skill level, I think it was Jeff Cooper that mentioned this in one of his books somewhere.

IMO, I think alot of times, the assumption is that you have to get into the ring. Personally, I have no desire to compete, however that doesn't mean that I can't/don't gear my training in that fashion. In other words, I should be able to train in the dojo, in the same fashion as they do in the cage, minus the cage. Personally, I'd rather get hit in the dojo, be able to figure out my mistakes, and get used to the shots.

 

[Chris Parker]

Now and then events in the ring can give a person the sense of some of the chaos that that a brawl presents, take tonight’s MMA show aired on national television as a tiny example.

Regards
Brian King

Hey Brian, interesting clip. A few things I noticed in here were that the BJJ ground-fighting game of Miller didn't seem to add up to much when overwhelmed by such a group there... but the guy I really noticed was one of Shield's team. Not sure if you noticed him, shy retiring wallflower that he was, coming in to any opportune wild punch, kick, or anything else he could (watch for him kicking Miller while Miller is being held down at 0:29...). He's an interesting study in aggressive body language! When you watch the clip again, identify him, then go back and just watch him. A perfect example of a gang-predator, just wanting to hurt, very opportunistic.

I think the gladiators had somewhat of an advantage over today's MMA practitioners, they were armed with the latest weapons. Still competition does have its place in practice as it heightens the level of stress involved, putting something on the line always makes it a little more difficult on the skill level, I think it was Jeff Cooper that mentioned this in one of his books somewhere.

This can also be done without competition. RBSD groups manage it with no competitive form of training at all. But the idea of being able to perform under the effects of heightened adrenaline is incredibly important. That comes from an understanding of the effects of adrenaline itself, and should be trained by anyone serious about self defence. Competition is for something else.

I believe the question was "Do you feel that Ring Fighting prepares you for a real world confrontation?" I was assuming that not all practitioners outside of MMA practiced traditional arts. There are some practitioners that have traditional backgrounds but are multifacited and have addressed real world self defense dealing with multiple armed assailants. Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting down traditional arts nor am I neglecting the effectiveness of a proven MMA fighter, I'm just stating that in the real world an empty hand is a wasted opportunity. If I was held hostage in a bank take over I would prefer to have Seal Team Six show up rather than the MMA brothers, just makes more sense street wise.

For (I think the third time now?), the question is not "Do you feel that Ring Fighting prepares you for a real world confrontation?", it is "(How well) do you feel.....?" Okay? Cool.

I have to say, though, I'm a little confused as to what you are saying for the majority of this post.... You are not assuming that all practitioners outside of MMA are TMA persons (okay, cool), and there are people with traditional backgrounds (non-sporting, developed for combat effectiveness, rather than the winning of a trophy or belt) who have addressed real world self defence? I would be less surprised with a system whose main emphasis is effectiveness in a violent situation coming up with an effective result in a violent situation than a system developed for a limited competitive environment coming up with the same.

You then say that you're not putting down the TMA practitioner (by saying they were effective against multiple armed attackers? That was a put-down?), nor doubting the effectiveness of a proven MMA fighter (who didn't even seem to be mentioned...), just that if you were being held hostage, you would prefer the Seal Team to an MMA athlete (okay, that I agree with... although, given the choice, I would prefer a specialist tactical team with a negotiator rather than the Seals. Hopefully less chance of getting caught up in the cross-fire...)? Can you possibly clarify what you mean by any of this?

 

[Bruno@MT]

The Gladiator slaves previously fighting in the arena did pretty well against Roman Soldiers during the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Servile wars, even if they ultimately lost by shear virtue of being outnumbered and poorly supplied......they managed to kill a whole lot of Roman soldiers who were 'trained for the street' with the skills they learned in the 'ring'.

Technically, no. Gladiators vs legionnaires was not a matter of street vs ring. For all intents and purposes, there were no rules of engagement for gladiators. It was kill or be killed, for both the legionnaires and the gladiators. There was no quarter in the arena, and there wasn't any on the battlefield.

What made the difference is that legionnaires were trained for man to man combat. Legionnaires were trained for stamina and tactics. The legions didn't crash through Europe because individual fighters were better than individual barbarians. They conquered us because they were drilled to form shield lines, and fought with short swords that stabbed instead of hacked / slashed.

A legion was a group of units that acted as methodical butcher machines, while their opposition still clung to the idea of individual warrior bravery. Legions have beaten larger forces as well despite being heavily outnumbered. The battle of Watling Street is a good example of this.

The gladiators lost because they were outnumbered and had to fight the legions on their terms: engagements of the type the legions were used to. Had they been able to fight a protracted guerrilla war, they might have beaten the legions had they not been outnumbered so much. Legions were not so phenomenal if they could not deploy as intended. As I said, a legion was a machine, not a group of individuals intended to be deployed individually. A good example of the latter is the fate of the troops led by General Varus, whose legions were crushed in Germany

 

[BLACK LION]

Hi,

This is really not an easy question to answer, I'm afraid Black Lion. While I appreciate the answer you gave, you missed a major part of the question, which MJS cunningly hid in the thread title. The full question is "How well do you feel that ring fighting prepares you for a confrontation in the real world?" And that opens itself up to many other questions, most obviously "what kind of confrontation?"

Chris, I did notice and the first thing I thought was oh hell there are so many variables and nuances how does one answer this quickly while on a work computer. Also, its personalized by asking "YOU" and my experience in the ring failed me on the streets on a few occasions despite how agile, limber, and how well of a "fighter" I was perceived as.

From my personal experience it has not prepared me. As stated above there are many variables and nuances from person to person but as for me, my "ring training" trained me to compete in the ring and was non transferable outside a "fair fight".

 

[5rings]

Hey Brian, interesting clip. A few things I noticed in here were that the BJJ ground-fighting game of Miller didn't seem to add up to much when overwhelmed by such a group there... but the guy I really noticed was one of Shield's team. Not sure if you noticed him, shy retiring wallflower that he was, coming in to any opportune wild punch, kick, or anything else he could (watch for him kicking Miller while Miller is being held down at 0:29...). He's an interesting study in aggressive body language! When you watch the clip again, identify him, then go back and just watch him. A perfect example of a gang-predator, just wanting to hurt, very opportunistic.



This can also be done without competition. RBSD groups manage it with no competitive form of training at all. But the idea of being able to perform under the effects of heightened adrenaline is incredibly important. That comes from an understanding of the effects of adrenaline itself, and should be trained by anyone serious about self defence. Competition is for something else.



For (I think the third time now?), the question is not "Do you feel that Ring Fighting prepares you for a real world confrontation?", it is "(How well) do you feel.....?" Okay? Cool.
OK...most honestly I believe It can do more damage than good, I remember watching a street fight between two rival gang members, I was living in Huntington Park CAlifornia at the time & about the age of 13. One guy had taken the other guy down & had him in a good headlock...the guy losing the fight had a friend that kick the other guy dead in the face opening up a big cut above his eye....then stabbed him in the ribs 3 times. I'll always remember that he was about 19 or 20 yrs old & two guys left him there on the sidewalk crying for mom.
I have to say, though, I'm a little confused as to what you are saying for the majority of this post.... You are not assuming that all practitioners outside of MMA are TMA persons (okay, cool), and there are people with traditional backgrounds (non-sporting, developed for combat effectiveness, rather than the winning of a trophy or belt) who have addressed real world self defence? I would be less surprised with a system whose main emphasis is effectiveness in a violent situation coming up with an effective result in a violent situation than a system developed for a limited competitive environment coming up with the same.
Confused is a good thing.......It forces you to think outside the Traditional Box!
You then say that you're not putting down the TMA practitioner (by saying they were effective against multiple armed attackers? That was a put-down?), nor doubting the effectiveness of a proven MMA fighter (who didn't even seem to be mentioned...), just that if you were being held hostage, you would prefer the Seal Team to an MMA athlete (okay, that I agree with... although, given the choice, I would prefer a specialist tactical team with a negotiator rather than the Seals. Hopefully less chance of getting caught up in the cross-fire...)? Can you possibly clarify what you mean by any of this?

Always nice to have a choice now....so as not to alter events later.

 

[Brother John]

I think it is better then nothing. I have known some people in traditional martial arts over the years that thought they were ready (prepared) And found out that the mean streets were just that. You just never know until that time comes

Honestly, I very much disagree. I see violence a lot due to my line of work in corrections. "Sparring" is a FAR cry from how real violence occurs. The parameters are different, the mind set is different, the objectives are different and the self restraint is different. Very different. ...and that's not even getting into the tactical errors that even "Good Sparring" will get you into. What's worse, sparring gets those 'sparring appropriate' reactions DRILLED into you. Those same reactions will get you killed on the street.

I really think that someone who's NEVER sparred has an advantage over someone who has.

Your Brother
John

 

[BLACK LION]

Honestly, I very much disagree. I see violence a lot due to my line of work in corrections. "Sparring" is a FAR cry from how real violence occurs. The parameters are different, the mind set is different, the objectives are different and the self restraint is different. Very different. ...and that's not even getting into the tactical errors that even "Good Sparring" will get you into. What's worse, sparring gets those 'sparring appropriate' reactions DRILLED into you. Those same reactions will get you killed on the street.

I really think that someone who's NEVER sparred has an advantage over someone who has.

Your Brother
John

And in your line of work, you see the worst of the worst...Infact, you see the ones many practitioners secrety fear facing one day.
You are correct in the fact that often times in actuality, the ones most successful at doing violence have no form or sort of training....they simply have intent, an understanding of what they need to get to and the sociopathic rage to suceed.... Often, sheer will and overwhelming agression can trump some of the best training. Nature sometimes rewards us of instances in which the prey foils even the most seasoned predators attempts at an easy dinner.

Intent a target and unbridled agression are key nutrients of successful violence... all else I feel is supplemental IMHO.

Predators use our training and our respect for others against us by pretending to be social and have everything a true sociopath lacks all a guise while hiding thier true intentions to see your organs and maybe take a bite of one. They ask for a smoke when they really want your life....these things you cannot learn in a ring or confined conventional environment based of respect and rules.

Thank you for your service in some of our harshest work environments.