How to Defeat Dudes Episode 5: Both hand wrist grabs

[Steve]

Getting away from the actual technique, I just want to say that the production value of these little videos is terrific. You follow the trainer's number one rule: tell them what you're going to tell them. Tell them. And then tell them what you told them. You're relaxed in front of the camera. There's a little humor. And you use multiple camera angles to keep things simple and clear, which presuming you're using a single camera means recording it film style and doing some editing, which most youtube "experts" can't or won't do. The set is nice and clean. Your audio is pretty good too, and although the stick or boom mic that you're using gets a little hollow at points it's not distracting.

While I don't really have a comment one way or the other about the actual content, for a youtube video series, this is definitely a cut above what I'm used to seeing.

 

[shesulsa]

Getting away from the actual technique, I just want to say that the production value of these little videos is terrific. You follow the trainer's number one rule: tell them what you're going to tell them. Tell them. And then tell them what you told them. You're relaxed in front of the camera. There's a little humor. And you use multiple camera angles to keep things simple and clear, which presuming you're using a single camera means recording it film style and doing some editing, which most youtube "experts" can't or won't do. The set is nice and clean. Your audio is pretty good too, and although the stick or boom mic that you're using gets a little hollow at points it's not distracting.

While I don't really have a comment one way or the other about the actual content, for a youtube video series, this is definitely a cut above what I'm used to seeing.

Gotta agree.

 

[Chris Parker]

I think I know what you're talking about here, but since we're talking about smaller movement, I'm wondering if there is any video demonstration of this? I'm pretty sure we have a technique for what you're describing and would love to solidify that notion. It is a favorite amongst LEO clients.

Had a quick search (my lord, there's some questionable material out there...), but didn't find any that I really liked. Some close(ish), but that's about it.

Out of interest, were you referring to the control or the initial escape? I looked for clips of both, but can add to the description if that'd help.

Sorry sir, I cannot agree. I had not practiced that escape of the left hand, but it will work. You are not attacking against the strength, but the weakness. Grasp someone tightly and let them apply that escape by moving the hand down, out, and back over. Few people develop strength there.

The initial escape has Chuck bringing his left hand across to the right.. which is within (inside) the arc of his opponents' right arm, allowing the opponent to follow the movement, which means it needs to be taken further, and needs more muscle to be high return. You may want to try again, but have your partner try to follow your movement in order to maintain the grip. Let them walk with it as well, not just stand there letting their arm get pulled out to the side and you'll see what I mean. The strength (that is causing the problem for the escape) isn't really in the hand/grip, but more in the shoulder/arm, as well the fact that the body is completely behind the grip for the entire time.

There are a range of things that can be done to limit the issues, including taking the hand up towards your right shoulder with a smaller step to limit the amount of space the opponent gets to follow the action, or bringing up your hand to the outside of the attackers wrist (from beneath), or coming over the top then pushing down... these are all better escapes for the left hand (to go for the wrist/arm lock, I'd be lifting my left hand to my right shoulder, ensuring to turn my hand, then lifting my elbow for a higher return escape to get into the right position for the second part).

I agree that I at least, would be less inclined to try to use the pressure point, if that is what the OP is suggesting, but more what shesulsa talked about. It is the way I was taught. However, I don't understand the rest of what you are saying. By moving the opponent's right arm to his left, you are closer to grabbing and locking than the opponent is to cocking and striking.

Uh, no, I'm still talking about the left hand release... haven't got up to the control yet. But for the record, no, the pressure point bit is rather pointless. You'd be better off rolling (turning) their wrist first, starting the loosening of the grip, which will enable the wrist control pretty easily.

If you mean a step at the end of the lock I agree. He cautions against allowing that to happen. As I was taught, we would place his arm in our armpit and bar him down, allowing him no movement. However, I don't think at that point it makes a lot of difference. By then he should only have one useful arm, as you should have sprained or broken his wrist with the lock.

Nope, still talking about the escape with the left hand to begin with... and the step I'm talking about is by the opponent, following the movement of your left hand to your right (their left), meaning that their arm isn't extended enough to create enough pressure to force their grip open (the weak point of the grip between the thumb and forefinger that I was discussing), and the entire thing fails.

And actually, a small step towards the opponent when applying the lock can increase it with minimalist effort, so Chuck cautioning against it is, again, not really the best advice or technical understanding. Mind you, I didn't see him give such a caution, rather he just indicates that his other leg stays back. I've got some issues with the control, and the angle of his step in (it could be much stronger with less effort), but that's kinda by the by now.

I think we are talking about the same thing, just describing it differently?

Yeah, at this point I'm talking about the control, and your concept of "under the armpit" is part of what I'm talking about. So yep, with the lock, same thing, different words.

There is truth in the above. You have to start with simpler things, and learn them well, so the more 'complicated' things don't seem so much that way. You also build up muscle strength for those moves with practice.

I don't know so much about muscle strength... but the rest, yep.

Not trying to be confrontational, just explaining what I have found works for me, with proper training.

Ha, it wasn't taken as confrontational at all. I like the opportunity to clarify what I was talking about.

Getting away from the actual technique, I just want to say that the production value of these little videos is terrific. You follow the trainer's number one rule: tell them what you're going to tell them. Tell them. And then tell them what you told them. You're relaxed in front of the camera. There's a little humor. And you use multiple camera angles to keep things simple and clear, which presuming you're using a single camera means recording it film style and doing some editing, which most youtube "experts" can't or won't do. The set is nice and clean. Your audio is pretty good too, and although the stick or boom mic that you're using gets a little hollow at points it's not distracting.

While I don't really have a comment one way or the other about the actual content, for a youtube video series, this is definitely a cut above what I'm used to seeing.

Agreed! As I said, I think Chuck is great in front of the camera, he has plenty of charisma, can handle himself, knows how to direct his focus towards the lens, and so on, the quality of the equipment being used comes through quite well, I just think that there can be better technical methods shown and taught.

 

[geezer]

So many ways to deal with this situation. Here's another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WC9dopmWYXg&feature=BFa&list=PL190BE70E91ACAC66&lf=results_video

Here are some we use in the NVTO. If your hands are low and grabbed from above, try double tan-sau (or double inside huen-sau) Then snap your hands down (as shown in the EWTO video above) and simultaneously kick. Can't hit the groin? Kick the knee or shin. What if the attacker is pulling... or more likely yanking you forward. Step in, going with the force, turning into a kwun-sau (high tan sau, low bong sau), roll the bong sau over his arm and fak sau him across the throat. Unless he's so strong you are literally jerked off your feet toward him. Great, same thing, step in with a turn and kwun-sau, but go straight to shoulder-punch (your shoulder punching his solar plexus) then as he bounces back chain punch his throat and run away.

Are these specific techniques any better than yours? No. It's all situational. Meaningful self-defense skills IMHO shouldn't be a "bag of tricks" but rather a mindset and a way to move. As the Great-Grandmaster Yip Man is often quoted as having said, "Your opponent will teach you how to hit him".

 

[puunui]

The initial escape has Chuck bringing his left hand across to the right.. which is within (inside) the arc of his opponents' right arm, allowing the opponent to follow the movement, which means it needs to be taken further, and needs more muscle to be high return. You may want to try again, but have your partner try to follow your movement in order to maintain the grip. Let them walk with it as well, not just stand there letting their arm get pulled out to the side and you'll see what I mean. The strength (that is causing the problem for the escape) isn't really in the hand/grip, but more in the shoulder/arm, as well the fact that the body is completely behind the grip for the entire time.

Most, if not all, people if they are grabbing you by the wrist, are either attempting to hold you in place, or drag you off somewhere. They will not be "following your movement", but instead will be directly opposing your energy. If you pull, they will pull, not follow. If you push, they will push back, and not give. Or they will lock down right where you are. The only time they would follow you, is if maybe you were with your significant other, in which case, there would be no need to do the type of self defense technique shown. As a defender you can induce them to "follow you", by initially pushing against their grab and then suddenly change direction, but then that would be a different technique than the one shown.

 

[puunui]

Getting away from the actual technique, I just want to say that the production value of these little videos is terrific. You follow the trainer's number one rule: tell them what you're going to tell them. Tell them. And then tell them what you told them. You're relaxed in front of the camera. There's a little humor. And you use multiple camera angles to keep things simple and clear, which presuming you're using a single camera means recording it film style and doing some editing, which most youtube "experts" can't or won't do. The set is nice and clean. Your audio is pretty good too, and although the stick or boom mic that you're using gets a little hollow at points it's not distracting.

I agree. I would like to see a little bit more of the footwork, but in general, it is a good presentation.

 

[puunui]

Some of these responses indicate the posters may not be taking physics into account for slighter victims. If this is a strong, large man grabbing a slighter female (one of the more likely scenarios for this kind of attack), pulling back against the grip will be ineffectual and can actually help increase the grip. Try examining your technique like this - if a child can't escape your grip using your technique, then you are not applying leverage from the appropriate vector.

I was always strong, with a strong grip, and I didn't realize how much I utilized muscle strength when doing techniques until a got a student who was much stronger than I. He was a jet mechanice in the marine corps, and his grip was pretty much a lock down on me. The first time I worked with him, nothing worked. He pretty much forced me to do the techniques correctly, otherwise they wouldn't work. We spent a year going over all the hapkido hand techniques before he got stationed someplace else. It was one of the best things that ever happened to me, having that student walk through the doors.

 

[Chris Parker]

Most, if not all, people if they are grabbing you by the wrist, are either attempting to hold you in place, or drag you off somewhere. They will not be "following your movement", but instead will be directly opposing your energy. If you pull, they will pull, not follow. If you push, they will push back, and not give. Or they will lock down right where you are. The only time they would follow you, is if maybe you were with your significant other, in which case, there would be no need to do the type of self defense technique shown. As a defender you can induce them to "follow you", by initially pushing against their grab and then suddenly change direction, but then that would be a different technique than the one shown.

Close, but wrong in some very key areas, Glenn. And you haven't quite understood what I meant, so let's see if I can clarify further.

If they are grabbing your wrist, what they are actually doing is seeking to control you, which is an important distinction to your take on it. And when it comes to "following your movement", believe me, that's what'll happen. It basically goes like this:

Bad guy grabs your left wrist with their right hand (and your right with their left - but we'll focus on the left wrist for now). This is a controlling action, and from here the aim will be to gain and maintain control over the victim.

Defender pulls their arm across to their right, which is in front of the bad guy's body. This is still within the bad guy's range of comfortable motion (and, if they are significantly stronger, well within the ability to resist by pulling back, which is another possibility... I was giving another easy way to nullify the technique).

As I said, the common aim here is to control, more than anything else, and one way that would be done is to simply move across (to the left) to move back in front of the victim. That's what was meant by "follow their movement" (honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about with "if maybe you were with your significant other...").

My point was that moving the arm across in front of the bad guys body is not really compromising it until it's been taken to a relative extreme, and all it takes for it to lose effectiveness is for the bad guy to step across and, by doing so, keep their arms in the same relative position. The "if you pull, they push back against it" idea isn't actually going to be the case in a lot of women's self defence situations... especially if the guy doesn't feel threatened by the women he's attacking/holding.

Oh, and Chuck does show pushing against the grab then changing direction, although he doesn't highlight it in his commentary.

 

[Big Don]

I was always strong, with a strong grip, and I didn't realize how much I utilized muscle strength when doing techniques until a got a student who was much stronger than I. He was a jet mechanice in the marine corps, and his grip was pretty much a lock down on me. The first time I worked with him, nothing worked. He pretty much forced me to do the techniques correctly, otherwise they wouldn't work. We spent a year going over all the hapkido hand techniques before he got stationed someplace else. It was one of the best things that ever happened to me, having that student walk through the doors.

I am the big strong guy. The tiny people (one of our best is 4'9) really have to be on the ball to make techniques work on me. Which also helps me to learn the techniques better.

 

[puunui]

Close, but wrong in some very key areas, Glenn. And you haven't quite understood what I meant, so let's see if I can clarify further.

Not only me, but others too. I don't think it is your fault so much that it is very difficult describing techniques in words.

If they are grabbing your wrist, what they are actually doing is seeking to control you, which is an important distinction to your take on it. And when it comes to "following your movement", believe me, that's what'll happen.

Maybe, but not if the attacker is stronger than the defender, which is normally the case. As a general rule, weaker attackers don't walk up to stronger defenders and grab their wrists. So if the attacker is stronger, then they are either locking you down and "controlling" you by not letting you move at all, or they are "controlling" you by dragging you off someplace.

It basically goes like this:

Bad guy grabs your left wrist with their right hand (and your right with their left - but we'll focus on the left wrist for now). This is a controlling action, and from here the aim will be to gain and maintain control over the victim.

Defender pulls their arm across to their right, which is in front of the bad guy's body. This is still within the bad guy's range of comfortable motion (and, if they are significantly stronger, well within the ability to resist by pulling back, which is another possibility... I was giving another easy way to nullify the technique).

As I said, the common aim here is to control, more than anything else, and one way that would be done is to simply move across (to the left) to move back in front of the victim. That's what was meant by "follow their movement" (honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about with "if maybe you were with your significant other...").

My point was that moving the arm across in front of the bad guys body is not really compromising it until it's been taken to a relative extreme, and all it takes for it to lose effectiveness is for the bad guy to step across and, by doing so, keep their arms in the same relative position. The "if you pull, they push back against it" idea isn't actually going to be the case in a lot of women's self defence situations... especially if the guy doesn't feel threatened by the women he's attacking/holding.

Oh, and Chuck does show pushing against the grab then changing direction, although he doesn't highlight it in his commentary.

If you pull, they pull in the opposite direction. If you push, they push back.

Maybe you can make a video if there aren't any out there that demonstrate what you are talking about with this "follow the movement" concept.