How old before you are a 10th degree black belt?

[Tripitaka of AA]

This chap, is a reason why people wonder about the 10th dan thing. If anyone is interested in learning from a Grandmaster, Professor, Doctor, Soke Master Instructor... he has a dojo in his garage filled with certificates and memberships of every known association and paper mill. At the time of the article, he was 42.. with half a dozen 10th dans, more 9th dans, some 8th dans, a clutch of 7th dans.. and a partridge in a pear tree.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

This chap, is a reason why people wonder about the 10th dan thing. If anyone is interested in learning from a Grandmaster, Professor, Doctor, Soke Master Instructor... he has a dojo in his garage filled with certificates and memberships of every known association and paper mill. At the time of the article, he was 42.. with half a dozen 10th dans, more 9th dans, some 8th dans, a clutch of 7th dans.. and a partridge in a pear tree.

I recently had this individual solicit membership in the IKSDA. The individual sent me his bio and ranks via email and persisted for about a month. He had over a half-dozen rankings in various arts, including a couple of 10th Dans. Now to me, this always sends up a red flag. I don't mind someone creating an art and taking the 10th Dan position....IF...they have the training and experience to back it up. There has been a lot of martial historical precedence to support this practice.

But claiming TWO 10th Dans in made-up arts? Why? Aren't you happy with one 10th Dan? Additionally the other rankings were medium to high. Now for full disclosure, I had no intentions of allowing this individual into the IKSDA. The whole thing screamed 'wall candy collector'. And several times I tried to turn him away nicely. Telling him that the IKSDA was KSD-only and of his plethora of ranks, only one was Korean (a supposed 5th Dan in Hapkido). Yet he persisted. So okay, here's the deal;

• The IKSDA only goes up to 9th Dan and only has one GM.
• You would be placed in the IKSDA at an equal rank to one you have earned and must demonstrate training from white belt to whatever high rank your claiming. In otherwords, I'm not interested in any rank you claim unless you can offer me documentation that you've actually trained with a person who then promoted you in a progressive fashion. Good ole boy promotions, and promotions awarded simply because you joined a dubious organization or self-promoted don't cut it.
• And of course adhere to all the other requirements i.e. send in video of what you teach, apply for membership, get voted on etc.

Surprise, surprise...he changed his tune and no longer wished to join. What a shock! I suspect that the plethora of ranks were either made up or doled out from suspect sources.

I used it as a source of entertainment value, but really it was a waste of time. I wonder if these people really think they're impressing people with six, eight or a dozen high Dan rankings in their bio? Don't they realize it makes them look like crap to serious martial artists?

Show me a progressive training schedule from white belt up to your claimed rank(s) and I'll be impressed. If you can't...go solicit membership in the millions of other organization who take your money with no questions asked. The IKSDA isn't for you.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Your statement assumes uniformity between arts regarding what a 'dan' is. But while my sympathies lie with your sentiment, intellecutally, I cannot agree with this.

If a person creates their own system, determines the ranking system, and is the highest ranking person in the system, then they have every right to call themselves by that rank. Just as anyone who owns a business can call themselves the owner, CEO, or president and actually be the owner, CEO, or president.

If you develop your own system and get ranking through an organization, such as the World Blackbelt Bureau, people call you a fraud. If you develop your own system and are awarded your rank by your students, people call you a fraud. If you develop your own system and award yourself your rank, people a fraud. If you get people in other arts to award you your rank, people call you a fraud.

So no matter what you do, people call you a fraud. So long as you don't make a big point of going around questioning everyone else's legitimacy, I don't really care how you get your grade. Your system and your ability will be readily apparent, and you and your system will either fade away inside of a century or you will establish a lasting legacy. History will judge you, but I have better things to do in the mean time.

+1

Bottom line is the ability to walk the walk.

 

[CK1980]

I like how this thread mentions people starting their own art form and declaring themselves the master of that art...

I would be wary of anyone who gives themselves an inflated ranking to make them seem better than they really are though.

If I were to ever start teaching my "personal style" to others, I would probably shy away from using any type of formal ranking. For that reason, my teaching will probably be limited to teaching my son and (if I am able) his children one day.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This chap, is a reason why people wonder about the 10th dan thing.

I don't wonder about the tenth dan thing. I don't really care.

 

[donald1]

Usually when they actually earn a tenth degree no mcdojo but truly earn it usually the ages are very old. I have heard when someone dies they get promoted one last time (that could possibly have no relevance to the question) but it does give sort of a picture to see how old

My knowledge isn't the sharpest, still learning, I'm going to ask my instructor this question he is a seventh degree or 8th (i forget that too)

 

[Hanzou]

I'm pretty sure that you can't reach 10th degree BB in my art (Bjj) unless you're one of Helio Gracie's older kids. However, in Bjj, you can't obtain a blue belt until you're 16, and you can't obtain a black belt until you're 18. I think any art that allows their students to go up to 10th Dan and beyond is suspect. Arts like Judo reserve 10th dan for Jigoro Kano for example.

 

[TimoS]

I think any art that allows their students to go up to 10th Dan and beyond is suspect. Arts like Judo reserve 10th dan for Jigoro Kano for example.

So judo is suspect? After all, there are 10th dans in judo http://judoinfo.com/judan.htm

 

[donald1]

That does make you think but isn't impossible. Once you reach a certain age and rank when you get promoted you're skills are looked at but mainly stuff like how well you teach and things like that.

 

[Hanzou]

So judo is suspect? After all, there are 10th dans in judo http://judoinfo.com/judan.htm

No, because Judo is well established and there's only a handful of living 10th dans in Judo in the world. Its pretty easy to find out who they are via their federation.

Now if someone creates a style called "Combat Judo" and proclaims themselves 10th dan, you know you have a fraud on your hands.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Now if someone creates a style called "Combat Judo" and proclaims themselves 10th dan, you know you have a fraud on your hands.

On what basis are they a fraud? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you; but what makes them a fraud? What makes their art fraudulent? As opposed to being overinflated?

Declaring one's self tenth dan in their own system without forging promotions, inventing false histories, or anything of that nature isn't fraudulent. The rank might be optimistic, delusional, or egotistical, but is it really fraudulent?

One of the problems that the inventor of a new system (regardless of said system's merit) faces is promotion. In short, if you're the top, who is going to promote you? If you apply the highest grade in the system to yourself, you neatly sidestep the problem.

So the only questions remaining are:

• What is the merit of the system? (does it do what it says it does? Does it make unrealistic claims? etc., etc.)
• Are the business practices of those who promulgate the system ethical?
• What is the teaching pedagogy?

So, if the art does what it says it does and the claims made are realistic, if the organization maintains ethical business practices, and if the teaching pedagogy is effective, then does arbitrary merit badge worn by the system founder really matter than much? Does it somehow make him/her a fraud?

Note: I'm neither upholding nor deriding the practice. But being a self appointed judan is not itself fraudulent. Problematic, perhaps, but not automatically fraudulent.

 

[chinto]

in Okinawan karate at least if he is not old, and not Okinawan, he is a fraud if he claims Judan rank.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

in Okinawan karate at least if he is not old, and not Okinawan, he is a fraud if he claims Judan rank.

Sure, but my question was to Hanzou's comment saying, "if someone creates a style called "Combat Judo" and proclaims themselves 10th dan, you know you have a fraud on your hands."

Now you're dealing with a new system with its own organization.

Just to be clear, I don't stump for the idea that creating your own system or being unaffiliated means that it's a good idea to declare yourself judan. Personally, I think it's a bad idea. I just won't go so far as to automatically call them a fraud in this particular scenario (maybe they are, but I would need more information).

 

[Mauthos]

Just for information one of the guys in our Kenpo organisation was awarded his 10th dan this weekend in Dublin from Larry Tatum and I believe he is either 59 or 60. Definitely a good Kenpoist and probably deserving of the rank as I know he has done a lot to push the art in Ireland and the UK.

 

[Dirty Dog]

No, because Judo is well established and there's only a handful of living 10th dans in Judo in the world. Its pretty easy to find out who they are via their federation.

Now if someone creates a style called "Combat Judo" and proclaims themselves 10th dan, you know you have a fraud on your hands.

Not true. It's pretty silly to claim that if a senior judoka branched off and formed "Combat Judo" that their training, knowledge and experience would be magically invalidated just because they named themselves head of their new system.

 

[oftheherd1]

Your statement assumes uniformity between arts regarding what a 'dan' is. But while my sympathies lie with your sentiment, intellecutally, I cannot agree with this.

If a person creates their own system, determines the ranking system, and is the highest ranking person in the system, then they have every right to call themselves by that rank. Just as anyone who owns a business can call themselves the owner, CEO, or president and actually be the owner, CEO, or president.

If you develop your own system and get ranking through an organization, such as the World Blackbelt Bureau, people call you a fraud. If you develop your own system and are awarded your rank by your students, people call you a fraud. If you develop your own system and award yourself your rank, people a fraud. If you get people in other arts to award you your rank, people call you a fraud.

So no matter what you do, people call you a fraud. So long as you don't make a big point of going around questioning everyone else's legitimacy, I don't really care how you get your grade. Your system and your ability will be readily apparent, and you and your system will either fade away inside of a century or you will establish a lasting legacy. History will judge you, but I have better things to do in the mean time.

I had never heard of the World Blackbelt Bureau, so I googled it. Wow, maybe I can become a 10th Dan after all! (And I wouldn't mind being one from there so long as I never had to admit where and how I came by it to anyone above white belt.) I was a little surprised and disappointed to note that Ameri-do-te was not an art I could get my 10th dan in. Secretly, in the hidden chambers of my heart, I have always wanted that.:rofl:

At some point I guess one just has to stop being amazed at the chicanery loose in the martial arts world.

 

[oftheherd1]

In the Hapkido I studied, 8th dan was the highest. At one point they decided to go to 10th dan, but as I understand, they eventually backed off from that. I know my Grand Master, an 8th Dan, decided not to go through with getting promoted. He seemed to feel he wasn't going to learn any more, and it was just going to be a big paperwork drill.

FWIW, when I studied TKD under Jhoon Rhee, he was a 6th Dan, and in TKD, 8th dan was the highest. Only the Japanese styles were known to have 10th dan, and it was understood that it was mostly an honorary title/rank.

Times change.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Ranking is meaningless outside of the organization one is ranked in. In my art for example anyone can achieve 10th dan, but they have to complete the entire curriculum which could take many, many years. It doesn't mean one is done with the training, it just means one has learned everything in the system.