How much of an advantage is a knife?

[Bruno@MT]

You won't have time to learn the patterns.
Patterns are exposed by attacks. You'd have to evade several consecutive attacks for this to work. You will get cut.

In class, we learn techniques to defend against knife attacks.
They are valuable for the purpose of learning body movement, because they are committed attacks. I.e. a stab is a stab with follow through.
In real life, people don't do that. They slash and stab like wild, at full speed.
Even if you block you get slashed.

For actual use in a knife fight, I would never employ anything fancy.
Either run like hell, or try to grab the wrist of the hand holding the knife and attack from there and without mercy.

 

[Joab]

You won't have time to learn the patterns.
Patterns are exposed by attacks. You'd have to evade several consecutive attacks for this to work. You will get cut.

In class, we learn techniques to defend against knife attacks.
They are valuable for the purpose of learning body movement, because they are committed attacks. I.e. a stab is a stab with follow through.
In real life, people don't do that. They slash and stab like wild, at full speed.
Even if you block you get slashed.

For actual use in a knife fight, I would never employ anything fancy.
Either run like hell, or try to grab the wrist of the hand holding the knife and attack from there and without mercy.

Getting back to my original post, while I concede that it is normative for someone with a knife to have a tremendous advantage over someone without any weapon except his empty hands, my thoughts go back to my former wing chun Sifu. When he kicked and hit the mook jon dummy(I may have misspelled it, it's been awhile) I couldn't even see all the hits and kicks it was so fast. I saw the dummy move and heard the sounds, but his speed was almost super human, and very powerful. Now let's say you have this sifu against some 13 year old wannabee gang member trying to impress his friends and having no idea who he is up against (The sifu was average sized) I really do believe the Sifu would have the advantage, the kid would have been kicked and hit and down on the ground before he even made his move. That is why I don't agree that in every situation the knife wielder has the advantage, in most cases yes, but against such a fast moving efficient fighter as the Sifu, the Sifu would have the advantage.

 

[arnisador]

Try it. Use a marking training blade.

Of course this can happen. I know a LEO who defended against a knife attack with a single well-timed jab; the same has happened on occasion to me in sparring. But if the kid just gets a hand up--even after the first hit--the next punch is coming in along the knife. He'll cut his own arm.

 

[Joab]

Try it. Use a marking training blade.

Of course this can happen. I know a LEO who defended against a knife attack with a single well-timed jab; the same has happened on occasion to me in sparring. But if the kid just gets a hand up--even after the first hit--the next punch is coming in along the knife. He'll cut his own arm.

I think in the case of this Sifu the punches and kicks would be so fast he would hit the ground before even beginning his move towards the Sifu. This is a scenario when the little wannabe gang member is holding the knife in front of the Sifu acting tough in front of his friends, not beginning the attack, posturing at this point. If the little punk had begun his attack, than I agree, there is a good chance even this completely outstanding Sifu would at least get cut, and the punk might even prevail if he got lucky.

 

[BLACK LION]

at bad breath distances a knife knows no equal... a knife has so many options for success while a firearm only has one...

now... nothing is more powerful than the human brain and the body... one can affectrute ample injury bare handed... If I was being attacked by a blade runner and I was armed with a firearm I wouldnt even bother to unholster it... I would use my body weapons as a neutralizer

From 10 feet one can effectively deploy and agress a target with a blade faster than someone can reach from a holster, present the firearm and take a shot... even if they did get the gun out and pop one off it most likely will not fully stop the action of the agressor and the knife may still hit its mark....

 

[kyosa]

I hadn't heard that! Do you know of an article/vid clip making that argument for extending it? I'd be curious to read it.

I had a chance to do some looking last night. According to Bill Lewinski of the Force Science Research Center "its easily possible for suspects in some circumstances to launch a successful fatal attack from a distance greater than 21 ft."

John Delgado, retired training officer for the Miami-Dade PD. has extended the 21 ft rule to 30 ft. "Twenty one feet doesn't really give many officers time to get their gun out and fire accurately. High security holsters complicate the situation, for one thing. Some manufacturers recommend 3,000 pulls to develop proficiency with a holster. Most cops don't do that, so it takes them longer to get their gun out than what is ideal. Also shooting proficiency tends to deteriorate under stress. Their initial rounds may not even hit."

"Beyond that, there's the well-established fact that a suspect often can keep going from momentum, adrenalin, chemicals and sheer determination, even after being shot. Experience informs us that people who are shot with a handgun do not fall down instantly nor does the energy of the handgun round stop their forward movement" states Chris Lawrence, team leader of DT training at the Ontario Police College. "Certain arterial or spinal hits may drop an attacker instantly. But otherwise a wounded but committed suspect may have the capacity to continue on to the officer's location and complete his deadly intentions."

"When working with bare-minimum margins, any delay in an officer responding to a deadly threat can equate to injury or death...so the officer must key his or her reaction to the first overt act indicating that a lethal attack is coming" reinforces attorney and use of force trainer Bill Everett an FSRC national advisory board member. "So the officer must key his or her reaction to the first overt act indicating that a lethal attack is coming."

edited to correct typo's rotated to midnight shift and I am half asleep-sorry

 

[Hudson69]

I am a Police Officer in Colorado and my experience with small blades comes from here. I think a knife is the pre-eminent weapon when up close and personal. I will admit that a gun is more dangerous but a gun requires the ability to put the business end on target to be effective (unless you are using it as a club) and to be held a certian way in order to employ it but a knife has no moving parts, can defeat most body armors, can be functionally used from a variety of holds and is even more concealable. (The 21 foot rule is something that was taught in my academy as well.)

On a side note, almost every Officer I work with carries one or more knives (I carry two if you include my SOG multi-tool). My primary knife is a fixed blade behind my spare mags in a way that it is accessible with either hand.

 

[Nervous Smile]

Even though I have lived near or around rough neighborhoods for much of my life, I have only had the misfortune of having a knife pulled on me a handful of times.

Knives are damn scary.

Most of the punks who pulled them on me were middle school bullies with their big bro's switchblade, and even a timid attacker like that is liable to cut you a few times. I've still got scars on my arms to prove that.

Worse still is someone who is determined or who knows what they're doing. In my experience I've had to fall back and throw side kicks at the knees, which usually gave me a chance to gain control over the weapon.

Still, though... I've yet to find a fail-safe way to deal with a guy with a knife.

 

[Mark Jordan]

"In a way, knives are more dangerous than guns, because there are two things you need to be concerned about with knives. The point, and the edge. The point is like the bullet from a gun. It moves in a straight line and can penetrate. The edge, or blade is another story. It can move in any direction, and is dangerous in all of them." http://www.alljujitsu.com/self-defense-programs.html

The only time you should even attempt to fight against a knife is if you have no other option but to fight back. In this case, pick up anything preferably something big to throw at them or whack them with... anything to distract them and give you time to escape,

 

[chinto]

in very close quarters, I agree with W.E. Fairbairn and his colleague Col Rex Applgate, a knife at hand to hand range is more deadly, people with blades make sure! and at very close quarters harder to evade .. at 30 ft gun.. but if you have a pistol or other gun why are you at knife range?? should have already been shooting long ago! also remember most knife encounters are more an ambush then a fight!! first thing you are likely to know there is a knife involved, your cut, or you have been stabbed.

 

[chinto]

Watch a few prison stabbings and get back with me on the kung fu expert dealing with some mere 'untrained punk with a knife'. The 'sewing machine' is very effecting in poking holes in your internal organs.

As to the knife versus gun, it depends on range. At touching distance a large knife is capable of doing more damage in less time than a handgun. Handguns don't easily severe limbs and cut open your belly so your intestines drop out. The advantage of the gun is in range, and that advantage reduces the closer one gets.

OH YA!! and the other thing is most of them are ambushes! Often they are hit and stabbed many times before they even realize a blade is involved!!

 

[RowdyAz]

Very unpredictable and easy to conceal. Alot of the time you won't know it's there until you feel it, and then it's too late...

 

[Crazy Eyes]

A knife is only as dangerous as the one who wields it. As someone who has been stabbed numerous times and lived to tell the tale, let me tell you something. A blade don't impress me much.

 

[RowdyAz]

A knife is only as dangerous as the one who wields it. As someone who has been stabbed numerous times and lived to tell the tale, let me tell you something. A blade don't impress me much.

Sorry I wasn't referring to the plastic ones

 

[Crazy Eyes]

Sorry I wasn't referring to the plastic ones

Not was I.

But I do know the stinging kiss of cold violating my flesh, as it's wielded by a desperate junkie not looking to go back to jail.

 

[Rich Parsons]

A knife is only as dangerous as the one who wields it. As someone who has been stabbed numerous times and lived to tell the tale, let me tell you something. A blade don't impress me much.

As someone who is trained in blade fighting and having been stabbed and cut a couple of times, I respect that blade even in the total novice as I have seen what someone with no training can do with a blade just on accident.

My experiences, are different than yours, so different opinions is to be expected.

 

[Dirty Dog]

A knife is only as dangerous as the one who wields it. As someone who has been stabbed numerous times and lived to tell the tale, let me tell you something. A blade don't impress me much.

As someone who has spent way too many years patching people up, your attitude strikes me as being more than a little foolish.

 

[Crazy Eyes]

As someone who has spent way too many years patching people up, your attitude strikes me as being more than a little foolish.

How, foolish???

I view myself as a prepared warrior ready to do battle.

 

[EddieCyrax]

Thanks to everyone for their replys. It would be interesting indeed to try to defend against a knife with a marker and see how I do as compared to a water gun. Of course the water would not be moving as fast as a bullet.

I would suggest its' not really a good idea to try to grab a wrist to defend yourself against a knife, there is a good chance you won't even see the wrist before the blade is sticking out of you. I would say the best defense against a knife wielder is to run, shoot him with a shot gun if you have one, handgun if not, pick up a chair and throw it at him, or anything else you can get your hands on and run! and keep on running. Jumping to the side and kicking him in the knee is suggested by one former teacher.

Personally, I would rather go against a knife wielder than a gun wielder. If someone pulls a gun on you within the distance that it is possible to redirect the gun he is stupid. There is no defense against a gun wielder who is to far away unless he freezes or the gun jams or he is out of ammo or you have a gun or something.

Again, thanks for all the sound, reasonable comments, I like this discussion forum a lot.

Try it with an untrained 6 year old.

Put on your white gi....hand the 6 year old a black marker.... Tell them to try and mark you....any where......you try to unarm the child without getting one mark.....

now count the marks/cuts you receive....

Now imagine this with an untrained adult, then a trained adult, then someone crazed out of their mind adult....

 

[EddieCyrax]