How many students does it take to...? (Financial question)

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If you have 1700 sqft mat space, you should be able to have around 35 students per class (50sqft per person per class) without it being very crowded. If each student is attending an average of 3 classes per week, and you have 24 classes per week, the facility should be able to accommodate 280 students.

Of course, that assumes that every one of your classes are maxed out, which is unlikely. I know right now, for us, our intermediate classes are practically empty because we didn't have a lot of new signups last year, but our advanced classes (people who stuck with us through covid) and beginner classes are very busy. So it's a bit lumpy, but we can't just drop the intermediate classes from the schedule lol.

One of my old schools, when they had a similar issue, changed their intermediate class to an intermediate/advanced class. They explained to the advanced students that they can come to the class, but that they'd be working on lower level material to improve it. Not everyone is interested in doing that, so you'd get a few extra students in the intermediate class which lets them have more partners (and also more people to help them), while not becoming overcrowded.

 

[dvcochran]

If you have 1700 sqft mat space, you should be able to have around 35 students per class (50sqft per person per class) without it being very crowded. If each student is attending an average of 3 classes per week, and you have 24 classes per week, the facility should be able to accommodate 280 students.

Of course, that assumes that every one of your classes are maxed out, which is unlikely. I know right now, for us, our intermediate classes are practically empty because we didn't have a lot of new signups last year, but our advanced classes (people who stuck with us through covid) and beginner classes are very busy. So it's a bit lumpy, but we can't just drop the intermediate classes from the schedule lol.

You are running more classes/week than we are. I suspect you segregate more (by age/belt) than we do.
Our lifetime average is 136 students. It ebbs up and down but has really jumped in the las 12 months.
If we have 40ish at the same time (which happens) we are packed.
Both locations have a knee wall to make the hallway that I have considered removing. This would add about 6' of width the full length of the workout area. But would make it awkward for visitors to get to the bathroom.

 

[WaterGal]

You are running more classes/week than we are. I suspect you segregate more (by age/belt) than we do.
Our lifetime average is 136 students. It ebbs up and down but has really jumped in the las 12 months.
If we have 40ish at the same time (which happens) we are packed.
Both locations have a knee wall to make the hallway that I have considered removing. This would add about 6' of width the full length of the workout area. But would make it awkward for visitors to get to the bathroom.

Yeah, running a lot of classes per week is how you manage more students in a small space.

 

[skribs]

If you have 1700 sqft mat space, you should be able to have around 35 students per class (50sqft per person per class) without it being very crowded. If each student is attending an average of 3 classes per week, and you have 24 classes per week, the facility should be able to accommodate 280 students.

Of course, that assumes that every one of your classes are maxed out, which is unlikely. I know right now, for us, our intermediate classes are practically empty because we didn't have a lot of new signups last year, but our advanced classes (people who stuck with us through covid) and beginner classes are very busy. So it's a bit lumpy, but we can't just drop the intermediate classes from the schedule lol.

You can also have a larger student body than your capacity, if a lot of them are flaky with attendance. Just becomes a little difficult when everyone actually does show up.

 

[dvcochran]

You can also have a larger student body than your capacity, if a lot of them are flaky with attendance. Just becomes a little difficult when everyone actually does show up.

Yes, and that creates other problems. One or two people who are lagging behind in curriculum can slow down the whole class.
This happens and is handled but the burden is on the instructor(s). Helping people understand the expectation and that it is their responsibility in this situation is important.

 

[skribs]

Yes, and that creates other problems. One or two people who are lagging behind in curriculum can slow down the whole class.

That happens anyway when everyone shows up, because people learn at a different pace.

 

[Xue Sheng]

1. Break even?
2. Make a decent living?
3. Make a good living?

I might be opening my own school sometime in the next few years. I know there's an old joke, "The best way to make a small fortune in martial arts, is to start with a large fortune and open a school." I know there's probably more truth to that joke than I'd like. My question is simple:

At your school, how many students does it take to:

1. Break even?
2. Make a decent living?
3. Make a good living?

For example, if the expenses are $5K per month, and you charge $100 per student per month, then 50 students is $5K per month (break even), 100 students is $10K per month ($5K profit), and 150 students is $15K per month ($10K profit). 5K/month is 60K/year, which is a decent living where I live. 10K/month is 120K/year, which is a very good living. I don't need to see your costs and monthly tuition rates (and personally don't think you should post those), but if you could post as:

1. 50 students = break even
2. 100 students = decent living
3. 150 students = good living

The reason I'm asking is I want to get an idea of what's typical. I know it will vary by my specific location, both in terms of what the costs are and what I can competitively charge my students. But if I have an idea of how many students I will need, it can help me make a few decisions, such as:

• Do I want to do this as a side gig and try and break even, or make it my primary source of income? (Or scrap the idea and start over in a new art so I can be a student again)
• How do I want to design my curriculum; do I need to be efficient with class time, or can I have supplemental classes like deep-dives and electives?

Question; What dollar amount are you using to define

1. Break even?
2. Make a decent living?
3. Make a good living?

 

[dvcochran]

That happens anyway when everyone shows up, because people learn at a different pace.

Yes. When you have a mixed class, which we always do, it is makes it harder but we believe the rewards are greater in the long run.
For example, when a white belt only works out with with white belts it is harder to see 'where' you need to be going. Training with all levels allows a person to see the good (and bad) ahead of them.
Unless you have a Lot of space and BB's or dictate class schedules (which we do not) classes can get chaotic at times. You have to learn how to lead all class dynamics. It can definitely be a challenge at times.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yeah, running a lot of classes per week is how you manage more students in a small space.

Of course it also assumes that these additional classes are held at a time when people can attend and are not occupied with other obligations, like jobs. It seems to me that there are certain times of the day when classes are much much more likely to be attended, such as evenings, weekends, and perhaps early mornings, and other times when attendance will likely be minimal or non-existent like during normal business hours (8-6) for most jobs. In that case, holding more classes does not really help in accommodating more students.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Question; What dollar amount are you using to define

1. Break even?
2. Make a decent living?
3. Make a good living?

That would vary by location, which I think is why he didn't put numbers. What someone needs to make a decent living in my area is vastly different from, say, Pittsburgh.

Except for "break even", that'd be zero, wouldn't it?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes. When you have a mixed class, which we always do, it is makes it harder but we believe the rewards are greater in the long run.
For example, when a white belt only works out with with white belts it is harder to see 'where' you need to be going. Training with all levels allows a person to see the good (and bad) ahead of them.
Unless you have a Lot of space and BB's or dictate class schedules (which we do not) classes can get chaotic at times. You have to learn how to lead all class dynamics. It can definitely be a challenge at times.

They also get better feedback from their training partners in partner drills.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Of course it also assumes that these additional classes are held at a time when people can attend and are not occupied with other obligations, like jobs. It seems to me that there are certain times of the day when classes are much much more likely to be attended, such as evenings, weekends, and perhaps early mornings, and other times when attendance will likely be minimal or non-existent like during normal business hours (8-6) for most jobs. In that case, holding more classes does not really help in accommodating more students.

The place I trained at the longest had some classes that were just "fillers" for those who needed them, but didn't get the kind of attendance the prime-time classes got. For a while, there was even a 10AM M/W class for a small number of folks who couldn't reliably make it to evening classes.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Of course it also assumes that these additional classes are held at a time when people can attend and are not occupied with other obligations, like jobs. It seems to me that there are certain times of the day when classes are much much more likely to be attended, such as evenings, weekends, and perhaps early mornings, and other times when attendance will likely be minimal or non-existent like during normal business hours (8-6) for most jobs. In that case, holding more classes does not really help in accommodating more students.

A lot of schools do this, and I hated it. They'd offer classes only between 7pm and later, or early in the morning. For myself (and most other people that work evening or night shifts), until recently that meant the biggest difficulty was just finding a school, of any style or price, within half an hour of where I either lived or worked, that offered even one class a week that fit with my schedule. I'd heard the same issue from a lot of people that I work with, so I get the feeling that if a school advertised that they had classes around noon-2PM, they'd get students for those classes, so long as they advertised well.

 

[Flying Crane]

A lot of schools do this, and I hated it. They'd offer classes only between 7pm and later, or early in the morning. For myself (and most other people that work evening or night shifts), until recently that meant the biggest difficulty was just finding a school, of any style or price, within half an hour of where I either lived or worked, that offered even one class a week that fit with my schedule. I'd heard the same issue from a lot of people that I work with, so I get the feeling that if a school advertised that they had classes around noon-2PM, they'd get students for those classes, so long as they advertised well.

I am sure there are people who could make those classes. Someone who is self-employed or otherwise works from home and has more control over his/her daily schedule, or a stay-at-home parent who has some time free in the day. But my point is, I don’t think a school owner can count on those demographics to keep the school solvent.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I am sure there are people who could make those classes. Someone who is self-employed or otherwise works from home and has more control over his/her daily schedule, or a stay-at-home parent who has some time free in the day. But my point is, I don’t think a school owner can count on those demographics to keep the school solvent.

Not on its own. But I think that could be a big source of revenue a lot of schools don't (or can't) take advantage of, as the individuals I'm talking about (different than the self-employed/WFH/SAHM ones you mention) are much less picky if they can find a school they can actually attend.

 

[Flying Crane]

Not on its own. But I think that could be a big source of revenue a lot of schools don't (or can't) take advantage of, as the individuals I'm talking about (different than the self-employed/WFH/SAHM ones you mention) are much less picky if they can find a school they can actually attend.

Good point, I can’t argue against that. If you are running a school and your livlihood depends on it, take students whenever they are available. Hopefully there would be a big enough group with interest in these times lots to make it worth the time, or real potential for it to grow if it is small to begin with.

 

[skribs]

My school used to have morning classes. They were barely utilized, to the point it wasn't worth my Master making the commute to open the school in the mornings. There was a 1 month period where I was furloughed, in which I was usually one of 2-3 students in the morning class.

Now, he does do some private lessons during that time (it helps that he's moved closer), but he doesn't keep it on the schedule.

 

[Flying Crane]

My school used to have morning classes. They were barely utilized, to the point it wasn't worth my Master making the commute to open the school in the mornings. There was a 1 month period where I was furloughed, in which I was usually one of 2-3 students in the morning class.

Now, he does do some private lessons during that time (it helps that he's moved closer), but he doesn't keep it on the schedule.

Yeah, that is what I suspect may happen a lot. It I think it could be a possibility, just need to adjust if it isn’t being used.

It also occurs to me that during summer vacations and holiday breaks, having morning and afternoon classes could give more options for the kids and the older students, including college age, who are suddenly finding free time.

 

[isshinryuronin]

One of my old schools, when they had a similar issue, changed their intermediate class to an intermediate/advanced class. They explained to the advanced students that they can come to the class, but that they'd be working on lower level material to improve it. Not everyone is interested in doing that

Hmmm. Perhaps those advanced students were not advanced enough. To me, there is no such thing as a basic class. After 50 years I'm still working on changing direction and doing a better punch. Sometimes advanced students get too caught up in the more difficult or complex things, or in competition. They lose sight that mastery of the basics and the full understanding of the concepts behind their ideal perfect execution is their main goal and a never ending quest.

OK. Back to the business topic...

 

[WaterGal]

Of course it also assumes that these additional classes are held at a time when people can attend and are not occupied with other obligations, like jobs. It seems to me that there are certain times of the day when classes are much much more likely to be attended, such as evenings, weekends, and perhaps early mornings, and other times when attendance will likely be minimal or non-existent like during normal business hours (8-6) for most jobs. In that case, holding more classes does not really help in accommodating more students.

There's definitely an upper limit on it and you'll get diminishing returns after that, but you can fit a pretty good number of classes during the peak hours of Monday-Friday 5pm-9pm and weekends 9am-3pm.