How many students does it take to...? (Financial question)

[skribs]

I might be opening my own school sometime in the next few years. I know there's an old joke, "The best way to make a small fortune in martial arts, is to start with a large fortune and open a school." I know there's probably more truth to that joke than I'd like. My question is simple:

At your school, how many students does it take to:

1. Break even?
2. Make a decent living?
3. Make a good living?

For example, if the expenses are $5K per month, and you charge $100 per student per month, then 50 students is $5K per month (break even), 100 students is $10K per month ($5K profit), and 150 students is $15K per month ($10K profit). 5K/month is 60K/year, which is a decent living where I live. 10K/month is 120K/year, which is a very good living. I don't need to see your costs and monthly tuition rates (and personally don't think you should post those), but if you could post as:

1. 50 students = break even
2. 100 students = decent living
3. 150 students = good living

The reason I'm asking is I want to get an idea of what's typical. I know it will vary by my specific location, both in terms of what the costs are and what I can competitively charge my students. But if I have an idea of how many students I will need, it can help me make a few decisions, such as:

• Do I want to do this as a side gig and try and break even, or make it my primary source of income? (Or scrap the idea and start over in a new art so I can be a student again)
• How do I want to design my curriculum; do I need to be efficient with class time, or can I have supplemental classes like deep-dives and electives?

 

[jks9199]

I might be opening my own school sometime in the next few years. I know there's an old joke, "The best way to make a small fortune in martial arts, is to start with a large fortune and open a school." I know there's probably more truth to that joke than I'd like. My question is simple:

At your school, how many students does it take to:

1. Break even?
2. Make a decent living?
3. Make a good living?

For example, if the expenses are $5K per month, and you charge $100 per student per month, then 50 students is $5K per month (break even), 100 students is $10K per month ($5K profit), and 150 students is $15K per month ($10K profit). 5K/month is 60K/year, which is a decent living where I live. 10K/month is 120K/year, which is a very good living. I don't need to see your costs and monthly tuition rates (and personally don't think you should post those), but if you could post as:

1. 50 students = break even
2. 100 students = decent living
3. 150 students = good living

The reason I'm asking is I want to get an idea of what's typical. I know it will vary by my specific location, both in terms of what the costs are and what I can competitively charge my students. But if I have an idea of how many students I will need, it can help me make a few decisions, such as:

• Do I want to do this as a side gig and try and break even, or make it my primary source of income? (Or scrap the idea and start over in a new art so I can be a student again)
• How do I want to design my curriculum; do I need to be efficient with class time, or can I have supplemental classes like deep-dives and electives?

Take a couple of business classes at your local community college. Even better if they have a sports business class. That'll give you a much better chance at having the knowledge to be successful. And you might consider looking into some of the more turnkey franchise programs, like Premier Martial Arts. You've got the martial arts side, and they provide the business stuff.

 

[MadMartigan]

From what I've seen, there are 2 kinds of schools that can support an instructor full time.
- Schools with massive kids programs (where your after school daycare/babysitting pays the bills and refers new students into your MA programs);
- Competitive coaching gyms. Places that fighters/athletes go to for training to go pro mma or Olympics.

My personal thought is if your interest or style of teaching does not fall into 1 of those categories; your best fit will likely be a part time recreational school.

As for #s, I'd say 100 studentswould be a minimum... supplemented by camps, after school programs, equipment/merchandise sales, etc.

As jks9199 said above, a business course would be invaluable before putting your livelihood up as collateral for a new business venture. In lieu of that, at least singing up for one of the many MA coaching companies that provide advertising materials, billing programs, and other supports to run the school as a business.

 

[Flying Crane]

There are other ways to approach it, by keeping overhead low. I am teaching in a city park, which means I need to pay a small fee to the city for each class session that I have. I also have liability insurance, and name the City as additional insured. I charge per session, not monthly. Basically, I need about 3-5 students to break even, if they are all attending regularly, once a week. With more sessions per week, I might break even with 2-3 students. But that is unrealistic, as people tend to have other obligations in life that cause them to miss a session here and there.

We train outdoors which is good, except during bad weather. But here in Northern California, it is still feasible year-round, we train under a picnic shelter when it rains. Bad air conditions during the wildfires can also be problematic.

since I don’t have a fixed location with a sign out, my visibility is lower and don’t attract as many students. But I like the low profile. If you want it to grow, need to have good advertising and marketing skills to get the word out.

but it’s nice to think that break-even is at about 5 students. That’s a whole lot better, in my mind, than 50 or 100.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are other ways to approach it, by keeping overhead low. I am teaching in a city park, which means I need to pay a small fee to the city for each class session that I have. I also have liability insurance, and name the City as additional insured. I charge per session, not monthly. Basically, I need about 3-5 students to break even, if they are all attending regularly, once a week. With more sessions per week, I might break even with 2-3 students. But that is unrealistic, as people tend to have other obligations in life that cause them to miss a session here and there.

We train outdoors which is good, except during bad weather. But here in Northern California, it is still feasible year-round, we train under a picnic shelter when it rains. Bad air conditions during the wildfires can also be problematic.

since I don’t have a fixed location with a sign out, my visibility is lower and don’t attract as many students. But I like the low profile. If you want it to grow, need to have good advertising and marketing skills to get the word out.

but it’s nice to think that break-even is at about 5 students. That’s a whole lot better, in my mind, than 50 or 100.

This is pretty much how my program was (and hopefullly will be again). I never owned or leased a space. I was either paying nothing (first place just wanted a program in place), paying a percentage (second place), or just letting the school keep what was coming in (third place). In all cases, my only real costs were insurance and any gear I wanted to buy.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is pretty much how my program was (and hopefullly will be again). I never owned or leased a space. I was either paying nothing (first place just wanted a program in place), paying a percentage (second place), or just letting the school keep what was coming in (third place). In all cases, my only real costs were insurance and any gear I wanted to buy.

Yeah, I also put up a website, printed some business cards, got a business license from the city, publishing a fictitious business name. Those are simple start-up costs but not very heavy. The big thing is, not paying rent and heat and water and electric and insurance on the building.

 

[Buka]

A wise man wrote today.....

"The best way to make a small fortune in martial arts, is to start with a large fortune and open a school."

 

[WaterGal]

Your expenses will really depend on your local area (how high the rent is), and how many FTE employees you have (and what wages are like in your area). Payroll and rent are really the biggest expenses for a martial arts school. There's also marketing, office supplies, utilities, credit card processing fees, and so forth, but off the top of my head, payroll (including salary for Mr WaterGal and myself) and rent make up at least 2/3 of our budget. Some costs will vary based on how many students you have, while others will be relatively fixed.

If you can start with a small, inexpensive space, and design your curriculum and enrollment process so that you don't need to hire any employees for a while, this will help you to get to making a living more quickly. Keep in mind that "teaching class" is only a third to half of the actual work of running a martial arts school - there's also marketing, sales, bookkeeping, customer service, cleaning, maintaining the facility, managing staff or volunteers, developing lesson plans, recording processes, etc etc. Budget time for that stuff.

We're in a high cost of living area, so for us, I think, raising prices and getting up to 120 students was around the point where we started making a decent living between the two of us and could hire about 0.5 FTE of part-time help (that is, we have a couple of part-timers that collectively work about 20 hours per week). We're not at 150 students yet, but we're on track to be within the next few months. I suspect we'll need more like 170 students to be making a "good" living.

 

[dvcochran]

Take a couple of business classes at your local community college. Even better if they have a sports business class. That'll give you a much better chance at having the knowledge to be successful. And you might consider looking into some of the more turnkey franchise programs, like Premier Martial Arts. You've got the martial arts side, and they provide the business stuff.

Fully agree with the exception of a sports management program. They more teach you how to run and athletic program which results in making money for someone else.

 

[jks9199]

Fully agree with the exception of a sports management program. They more teach you how to run and athletic program which results in making money for someone else.

That's why I specified business, not management. But thanks for pointing out the difference. Sports BUSINESS classes are hard to find.

 

[dvcochran]

I might be opening my own school sometime in the next few years. I know there's an old joke, "The best way to make a small fortune in martial arts, is to start with a large fortune and open a school." I know there's probably more truth to that joke than I'd like. My question is simple:

At your school, how many students does it take to:

1. Break even?
2. Make a decent living?
3. Make a good living?

For example, if the expenses are $5K per month, and you charge $100 per student per month, then 50 students is $5K per month (break even), 100 students is $10K per month ($5K profit), and 150 students is $15K per month ($10K profit). 5K/month is 60K/year, which is a decent living where I live. 10K/month is 120K/year, which is a very good living. I don't need to see your costs and monthly tuition rates (and personally don't think you should post those), but if you could post as:

1. 50 students = break even
2. 100 students = decent living
3. 150 students = good living

The reason I'm asking is I want to get an idea of what's typical. I know it will vary by my specific location, both in terms of what the costs are and what I can competitively charge my students. But if I have an idea of how many students I will need, it can help me make a few decisions, such as:

• Do I want to do this as a side gig and try and break even, or make it my primary source of income? (Or scrap the idea and start over in a new art so I can be a student again)
• How do I want to design my curriculum; do I need to be efficient with class time, or can I have supplemental classes like deep-dives and electives?

I am going to be that guy and give you an indirect answer.
But first some Big questions:
Of the 5k monthly expense estimate how much is going toward rent?
What is the national cost of living scale where you will rent?
If 2/3’s of that is for rent you are better off purchasing. I will explain.
Why be the slave when you can be the master?

My first school was/is in a strip mall. Don’t make that bigger than it is. It is a 4-unit complex that I was able to purchase after the school had been there about six months. But the wheels of purchase were set in motion about a year before opening the school.
By starting out with a 30 year variable mortgage , the payment was less than any spot I could rent of equal size in a comparable area. I converted to a fixed 15 year 3 years later and paid it off in less than 10.
Using a rough pen, 2 rented units pay the bills. Especially with the consistent change in the “martial arts as a business” landscape, it allows for maintainability of a commercial size Dojang that I could not see having any other way.
And here is a salient point; I do not believe it would matter what service industry it is. As long as the product is not costing you money it can stay viable.
I don’t ever remember doing the “per student” financial evaluation since it hasn’t been needed but your number will only be relevant to your input/output situation. It is pretty hard for me to picture a commercial school of big enough to support the student numbers you talked about without some way to offset the initial deficits. Yes, that can be working another full time job but that surely changes the dynamic.

Now, for some realities you will need to embrace:
You need to either take a really good business MANAGEMENT class (not sports management), get experience from your work, or have a good, trustworthy mentor. No shame in the latter and it has paid huge dividends to me for years. He has helped me make all my big financial decisions.

Expect to spend more on marketing than rent in the beginning.

Expect to take a loss or make little to no money for 3-years. This is how you have to plan you finances (most people anyway). IF you do it right you will far out pace the 3 year timeframe.

Don’t be afraid to sublet in the beginning.


One of the biggest changes I have seen through the years is what people perceive to be a “nice” gym. Gone are the days of the old sweat boxes. When people pay for a service they want the whole enchilada. And I think that is within reason. This means you must plan and design your Dojang for what works now and that can expand/modify in the future. And teaching classes will be less than 50% of the job.
This is another area visiting as many schools as possible has great value.

If you can show us an actual budget it would give us all great points to talk around. Would also need to see some comps on rentals in the area and then see what is for sale in your area.

 

[skribs]

There are other ways to approach it, by keeping overhead low. I am teaching in a city park, which means I need to pay a small fee to the city for each class session that I have. I also have liability insurance, and name the City as additional insured. I charge per session, not monthly. Basically, I need about 3-5 students to break even, if they are all attending regularly, once a week. With more sessions per week, I might break even with 2-3 students. But that is unrealistic, as people tend to have other obligations in life that cause them to miss a session here and there.

We train outdoors which is good, except during bad weather. But here in Northern California, it is still feasible year-round, we train under a picnic shelter when it rains. Bad air conditions during the wildfires can also be problematic.

since I don’t have a fixed location with a sign out, my visibility is lower and don’t attract as many students. But I like the low profile. If you want it to grow, need to have good advertising and marketing skills to get the word out.

but it’s nice to think that break-even is at about 5 students. That’s a whole lot better, in my mind, than 50 or 100.

This is something I considered. However, I was told by several people that where I'm planning on going, it's too hot for too much of the year to work out in the park.

Those people are: my sister and brother-in-law (who went to school for sports medicine, and live where I'm planning on opening my school), my parents (who are 2nd and 3rd degree black belts, and also live where I'm planning on opening my school), and one of my fellow students at my school (who is a 4th degree black belt, and used to live where I'm planning on opening my school)

Your expenses will really depend on your local area (how high the rent is), and how many FTE employees you have (and what wages are like in your area). Payroll and rent are really the biggest expenses for a martial arts school. There's also marketing, office supplies, utilities, credit card processing fees, and so forth, but off the top of my head, payroll (including salary for Mr WaterGal and myself) and rent make up at least 2/3 of our budget. Some costs will vary based on how many students you have, while others will be relatively fixed.

If you can start with a small, inexpensive space, and design your curriculum and enrollment process so that you don't need to hire any employees for a while, this will help you to get to making a living more quickly. Keep in mind that "teaching class" is only a third to half of the actual work of running a martial arts school - there's also marketing, sales, bookkeeping, customer service, cleaning, maintaining the facility, managing staff or volunteers, developing lesson plans, recording processes, etc etc. Budget time for that stuff.

We're in a high cost of living area, so for us, I think, raising prices and getting up to 120 students was around the point where we started making a decent living between the two of us and could hire about 0.5 FTE of part-time help (that is, we have a couple of part-timers that collectively work about 20 hours per week). We're not at 150 students yet, but we're on track to be within the next few months. I suspect we'll need more like 170 students to be making a "good" living.

This is all kind of along the lines of what I've been thinking. I've been looking at leases where I'm planning on moving, and it's like..."maybe I'll just join a school." It is nice knowing that if I can afford that, I can probably afford everything else.

Regarding time spent - some of that will depend on whether I start off aggressive by opening a school right away, or if I take an intermediate route and start off teaching a class at a community center. However, if I'm doing that, then I think some of my fancier options for a curriculum go out the window.

 

[skribs]

@dvcochran

If I under stand you correctly, you're suggesting something along the lines of: Buy a building that has 4 units in it. Use 1 unit to teach, and rent the other three out to pay for my mortgage. Is that correct?

Buying isn't something I've considered. When I've been looking in the area I'll be moving to, the 7-figure price tags on the spaces for sale have turned me off. Right now, that area is going through a huge growth spurt. Property prices are skyrocketing right now. (That's one of two reasons I haven't given specifics about my budget). I'm also a little bit concerned with the extra work of managing rental properties.

It is something I'll consider. It does go in line with one of my plans which is: win the lottery, and then buy some land on which to build my dream dojang.

The two reasons I'm not getting more specific about my budget are:

• The prices where I'm looking at going are pretty volatile right now, so any analysis we do today will be wrong in 3 months, let alone before I move
• Privacy

 

[Rich Parsons]

I might be opening my own school sometime in the next few years. I know there's an old joke, "The best way to make a small fortune in martial arts, is to start with a large fortune and open a school." I know there's probably more truth to that joke than I'd like. My question is simple:

At your school, how many students does it take to:

1. Break even?
2. Make a decent living?
3. Make a good living?

For example, if the expenses are $5K per month, and you charge $100 per student per month, then 50 students is $5K per month (break even), 100 students is $10K per month ($5K profit), and 150 students is $15K per month ($10K profit). 5K/month is 60K/year, which is a decent living where I live. 10K/month is 120K/year, which is a very good living. I don't need to see your costs and monthly tuition rates (and personally don't think you should post those), but if you could post as:

1. 50 students = break even
2. 100 students = decent living
3. 150 students = good living

The reason I'm asking is I want to get an idea of what's typical. I know it will vary by my specific location, both in terms of what the costs are and what I can competitively charge my students. But if I have an idea of how many students I will need, it can help me make a few decisions, such as:

• Do I want to do this as a side gig and try and break even, or make it my primary source of income? (Or scrap the idea and start over in a new art so I can be a student again)
• How do I want to design my curriculum; do I need to be efficient with class time, or can I have supplemental classes like deep-dives and electives?

There will be fixed costs and variable costs within a range and total unknown variable costs.

Fixed costs:
Rent / Mortgage
Insurance

Variable within a range
Energy / Lights and heating - will vary form month to month and will vary form season to season depending upon lots of things.

Variable Total Unknown.
Equipment costs
If you buy lots of one size one may never sell enough of that size to break even on that order.
One may have to order in small amounts before the Monthly dues are posted.
So some costs for minimal supplies on hand and cash available to address orders as required.

Also, the industry is cyclical, and one should understand that they may need to take monies from the good months to cover the bad months.

To do it properly, one should review the costs of the previous tenant for their expenses.
One should also create the maximum number of students they can support in the size available.
This will be the maximum at one time.
Use this number with unique classes to determine an upper limit of a perfect world of income.
Then add up all the expenses for each month.
If the perfect income does not exceed the total (yearly) Monthly expenses, then stop there.
..
After you have your yearly target of expenses, figure out how many students you will need in the good months to meet that.
Then project ( do research manually on other schools on how many they get in the off months ) and see how their delta from good to bad is, and apply it to yours.
After that step then calculate the income for the bad months.
Compare it to your monthly expectation for expenses.
If the income exceeds your expenses then GREAT!
If not then figure our how short you are over the bad months. figure out if it is three or four or X months.
Take that shortage for say four month , total it up. Divide it by 8 months the good months and this is the value you add to the expenses to the good months.
...
Now if the good months average income exceed the new calculated expenses to cover the bad months you have to determine if that breaks even or gets by or can live off of.
.
.
.
Also note: If this story problem gives one a headache and makes one hate Math more than one already does, then maybe they will need to have someone who handles the numbers. If a spouse and they already work make sure they understand one's expectations.
if someone outside of one's immediate circle then this cost needs to be added into the expenses.
..
Good Luck and best wishes.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Boy, it's tough now to open a new school. Hard to attract prospects when the market is more or less saturated with other schools. Not being a growth industry with many people excited about getting in on the "new MA craze," (Bruce who?) getting people in is difficult. That said, here's a few thoughts regarding a commercial school:

Subletting a non-competing space to teach out of is an option, until you have a loyal group that will follow you into a stand-alone spot.

Rent is the biggest cost by far, so must be your first consideration. This will be the main factor in how many students you will need to break even. Get a cheap spot (with no winos sleeping or begging on the sidewalk) to start and gradually furnish it. May not attract some people at first (there are other selling points, though.)

Great visibility for signage with good walk and drive-by traffic is worth hundreds of dollars in marketing every month.

Gaining an excited and committed core of students ASAP is critical. They will do a lot of marketing for you using social media to their friends. I think the best age group to target to maximize this is the 14-24 yrs segment.

Excite and motivate that first crop. These are the most important students you will have (business-wise and MA student wise.)

Getting people in by any ethical means possible and ASAP may mean offering that first crop an amazing deal. Don't think of it as losing money, but as gaining a marketing crew.

Good luck!

 

[skribs]

Energy / Lights and heating - will vary form month to month and will vary form season to season depending upon lots of things.

Where I'm planning on moving, it's more like Energy / Lights and Cooling.

One should also create the maximum number of students they can support in the size available.
This will be the maximum at one time.
Use this number with unique classes to determine an upper limit of a perfect world of income.

This is part of the reason for the question. I've actually got two different ideas for the overall structure of the school. One is a comprehensive curriculum that teaches everything I want to teach.

The other is more experimental (at least for my art) - a core curriculum that touches on everything I want to teach, with elective classes that deep-dive into different aspects of the art. For example, one might be a focus on forms, another a focus on point sparring, and another focused on self-defense (practical applications of the striking and mix in some Hapkido).

However, my estimate is that doing this will probably limit my potential student body size by around 50%, because half the classes would be core classes and half the classes would be electives. This is based on a hypothetical schedule of doing core classes M-W and electives T-Th, with make-up classes for each on Friday-Saturday. I could instead do core classes M-Th and elective classes F-Sat, but then you're only doing those once a week, and I feel like that would be difficult to keep up on.

I'm getting kind of off-topic, so I don't want this to be the focus of the thread. But this is why I'm asking. I have two ideas. One idea is probably less profitable than the other, but that's fine as long as I'm profitable enough. If I can't make a living on it, then it's a non-starter, and I should just drop the plan.

Also note: If this story problem gives one a headache and makes one hate Math more than one already does, then maybe they will need to have someone who handles the numbers. If a spouse and they already work make sure they understand one's expectations.
if someone outside of one's immediate circle then this cost needs to be added into the expenses.

My favorite part of video games is spreadsheets. I do spreadsheets for pretty much every game I play. I don't have a problem at all with this level of math. My problems are:

• Not knowing what all of the variables are
• Not knowing what is a reasonable number for some of the variables
• Not knowing what will be a reasonable number for the other variables by the time I am ready to open a school

 

[skribs]

Boy, it's tough now to open a new school. Hard to attract prospects when the market is more or less saturated with other schools. Not being a growth industry with many people excited about getting in on the "new MA craze," (Bruce who?) getting people in is difficult. That said, here's a few thoughts regarding a commercial school:

My family lives in the area I'm moving to. They say there's plenty of demand for martial arts schools down there. Whether that demand is still there when I move is another question.

My current school has no problem getting new students right now. Part of that may be because we're already established (and my Master does have a lot of credentials I won't when I'm ready to open mine, such as higher ranks in more arts, and Special Forces experience). However, we're at a point where we've had to take measures to reduce the size of the beginner class. It used to be that our first four belts had these classes:

• 4-7 White + Yellow
• 8 - 12 White + Yellow
• Kids Purple + Orange
• 13+ White -> Orange

Now, the kids classes are 4-7 White, 8-12 White, and then Kids Yellow -> Orange; and the adult class is 13+ White + Yellow, with the Purple + Orange belts going to the adult advanced class. Even with that, we're at a point where all of our white belt classes are packed.

I think there may be even more demand now that kids have been locked up with their parents for over a year. Parents want them to get exercise and learn discipline.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The other is more experimental (at least for my art) - a core curriculum that touches on everything I want to teach, with elective classes that deep-dive into different aspects of the art. For example, one might be a focus on forms, another a focus on point sparring, and another focused on self-defense (practical applications of the striking and mix in some Hapkido).

Good idea that would appeal to students with different goals and give everyone what they want. Sort of like having a major in karate with a minor in a more specialized area of the students' choice.

My current school has no problem getting new students right now. Part of that may be because we're already established (and my Master does have a lot of credentials I won't

That's a good sign. I don't think the credential issue is major, although the hard core self-defense types would appreciate the Special Forces background of the instructor. Still, the personality of the instructor as far as confidence and sincerity is what counts most.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Where I'm planning on moving, it's more like Energy / Lights and Cooling.

This is part of the reason for the question. I've actually got two different ideas for the overall structure of the school. One is a comprehensive curriculum that teaches everything I want to teach.

The other is more experimental (at least for my art) - a core curriculum that touches on everything I want to teach, with elective classes that deep-dive into different aspects of the art. For example, one might be a focus on forms, another a focus on point sparring, and another focused on self-defense (practical applications of the striking and mix in some Hapkido).

However, my estimate is that doing this will probably limit my potential student body size by around 50%, because half the classes would be core classes and half the classes would be electives. This is based on a hypothetical schedule of doing core classes M-W and electives T-Th, with make-up classes for each on Friday-Saturday. I could instead do core classes M-Th and elective classes F-Sat, but then you're only doing those once a week, and I feel like that would be difficult to keep up on.

I'm getting kind of off-topic, so I don't want this to be the focus of the thread. But this is why I'm asking. I have two ideas. One idea is probably less profitable than the other, but that's fine as long as I'm profitable enough. If I can't make a living on it, then it's a non-starter, and I should just drop the plan.

My favorite part of video games is spreadsheets. I do spreadsheets for pretty much every game I play. I don't have a problem at all with this level of math.

My problems are:

• Not knowing what all of the variables are

Well I did research in an area a few years ago to see if it made sense.
First search all the local schools. See how much competition there is.
Second call and ask the landlords of those locations what the rent is.
Third, ask them if they could provide estimates for energy usage from others in the area.
Note: You may need to have a cover story as many will not talk to you for a direct competition for which you are after the details not the location.

Create those spreadsheets and tabs and track the costs .

• Not knowing what is a reasonable number for some of the variables

See above for those reasonable values
Ask the location site you are at.
Talk to other store owners and say you are looking to rent and are curious about the cost for heating and cooling.
Note: End units with more exposed walls may cost more.

• Not knowing what will be a reasonable number for the other variables by the time I am ready to open a school

Yes, staying current will require data update.
Easy way is to look at local Inflation rate. If 2-4% you add 5% per year to adjust for other unknown costs for your estimate.

 

[skribs]

Good idea that would appeal to students with different goals and give everyone what they want. Sort of like having a major in karate with a minor in a more specialized area of the students' choice.

That was the idea. Of course, there are a few cons...

• Reduced potential student body size
• Difficulty balancing wildly different electives in terms of what a credit is
• Difficulty balancing electives in terms of likely participation (I'm guessing the forms class would be very low participation)