How important is standing meditation to someone's tai chi practice?

[East Winds]

I have to agree with all three points of view expressed on this thread (mograph, Formosa Neija and Xue Sheng) but perhaps more with mograph. I have practiced Zhan Zhuang now for almost 15 years and find it benefits my Taiji practise immensly, as well as my general health. (I have also indulged in Yi Chuan with Karel Koskuba and Da Chen Chuan (the martial aspect of Zhan Zhuang) with Master Lam Kam Chuen). I agree with the point that less than 20 minutes standing is worthless and up to one hour is the norm. However starting with five minutes and working upwards is OK. I also agree that it is possible to select a posture from the taij form and use it as a Zhan Zhuang stance. I don't advocate doing the form and stopping to hold a stance though. Zhan Zhuang is an excellent introduction to developing an awareness of the energy/jin aspects of taijiquan and I would reccomend it wholeheartedly to students of taijiquan.

very besat wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

. I don't advocate doing the form and stopping to hold a stance though.

on the oft chance this is a response to what I wrote I should clarify that I am not saying nor is my sifu saying stop the form to hold the stance. The idea is to pick one and stand in it.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

I'm sorry, but dismissing Zhan Zhuang without actually having given it a chance first-hand (standing past the point of discomfort) is like dismissing Taijiquan because it's practiced slowly.

LOL. I've practiced standing for years. But hey, make whatever assumptions you want.

I'm not dismissing it. Just pointing out it's weaknesses.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

But if you are going to train Zhan Zhuang and actually want to gain anything from it you are going to be standing there for at least 20 minutes more like 30 or greater. ... But this view of Zhan Zhaung is what worked for me…..your mileage may vary

Fair enough. And this is a fairly standard view, so you're not alone in holding it.

All I will say is that if you're doing it the way I was taught, 5 minutes would be enough and few people would likely be able to do that. Time, after all, is only one measurement. There are many others.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Fair enough. And this is a fairly standard view, so you're not alone in holding it.

All I will say is that if you're doing it the way I was taught, 5 minutes would be enough and few people would likely be able to do that. Time, after all, is only one measurement. There are many others.

Fair enough...like I said…..your mileage may vary :asian:

 

[DaleDugas]

standing is a serious part of all internal martial arts.

In Jiulong Baguazhang we start each class with Quiet Sitting, then do our Kai Men Dao Yin to open up the joints and warm up the body.

We then do what we term as Power Standing. In the beginning you stand there in Wuji Bu (Void Stance: with feet at hip width and knees unlocked), but as time progresses and the student advanced you take all the concepts and principles learned motionless and begin to walk. then you begin to circle and then after a period of time you circle walk doing all that you learned to manifest in standing.

Standing to just stand is a waste of training time and needs to be seriously re evaluated if the teacher is just having you stand there without teaching you what to do internally. way too many people have no clue about real standing and it shows when anyone just tells you to just stand.

Standing is not going to teach you to be a better fighter. It will teach you a lot about your structure, and how your structure related to you being upright from the ground.

Fighting and sparring with your training partners teaches you to be a better fighter.

 

[mograph]

LOL. I've practiced standing for years. But hey, make whatever assumptions you want.

I'm not dismissing it. Just pointing out it's weaknesses.

When you stand, how long do you stand without a break?

 

[DaleDugas]

standing is the beginning.

You need to take all that is learned from being motionless and apply it when you are moving.

It is very hard to do.

Yiquan is not only about standing.

Standing is learning to cultivate with less interference from movement.

Once you can fill, expand and sung you then move on to doing these things with movement.

Again standing just for standing sake is a waste of time.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

When you stand, how long do you stand without a break?

Me? I stand for 25 hours a day.

Sorry but I'm not going to put my training up here for you to review. You can believe or train whatever you want. It doesn't bother me.

As I've already said a least twice, standing practice is good. It might even be necessary at the beginning. But like every other piece of training out there, it has limitations. It isn't everything. If someone can't see that, then that's fine with me.

Along with what Dale just said, I would add that standing for time is a waste of time. You may as well just do stance training. Internal martial arts shouldn't be a penis measuring contest about who can stand the longest.

BTW, this is what makes the standing absolutely worthless. Using an external measurement like how long or how low, etc. means there isn't much going on internally in the practice. That's fine for beginners, but there's much more to that practice than that.

I highly recommend reading this:
http://formosaneijia.com/2008/ma-penis-measuring-contests/

 

[Xue Sheng]

You know I have been thinking about this standing and length of time in standing thing and basically I have come up with the argument is pointless.

I mean no offense to anyone but I do honestly feel that quality here is better than quantity. I do not stand in Zhan Zhuang at all these days, I focus on form and the postures of that form, but if I look at when I was standing in Zhan Zhuang or even Santi Shi for that matter, in the beginning it was rather difficult to hold any of the postures that can be used as Zhan Zhuang or santi for very long. For me I could stand in Zhan Zhuang longer than Santi as first because to be honest the early stages of santi hurt, a lot, but after awhile you find you can stand longer and longer. It is like my Taiji, some people say the long form at 18 minutes is fine some say 20 some (me) like 30 minutes. But there are times when I go with the flow and I find it only took my 15. It all depends on how focused I am. 30 minutes is great if you are focused but if most of that is thinking about what you had for supper then it is pointless and 15 minutes is a bit short but if you are intensely focused it is quite amazing. However if that 15 minutes is thinking about how boring this is then again it is pointless.

But back to Zhan Zhuang. I was first shown this (officially) by my Xingyiquan teacher who felt it was rather important and I was later show Zhan Zhuang by Chen Zhenglei who to be honest I am not exactly sure how much importance he places on it and then lastly by my Yang Sifu who places little importance on it at all. He has other things standing and qigong he feels are much more important. I have also read and followed and liked the book by Lam Kam Chuen on standing. But in the beginning it took me a while to concentrate and actually get beyond the “did I leave the oven on” kind of thoughts that would pop into my head and also getting by the “Hey my shoulders hurt” and of course the “damn my legs are tired” thoughts. This was later followed by “wow what is that feeling” and the “so to get force from point A to point B all I need to do is that…COOL!!” and then later it became just standing. In the beginning (and all of this by the way is just me I am not saying that anyone else needs to do this or will be the same) it took a REAL long time to get to someplace I thought I should be and after a while it took less and less time to get there. I was eventually standing for about 30 minutes in Zhan Zhuang not because I felt I needed it but because I truly enjoyed it. Could I have stood for 5 minutes, at that point, and got the same results? Well to be honest I don’t know but I imagine it is possible but I would always recommend that people get to a good 30 minutes if for nothing else the experience of it. But then I have not trained every possible variation of Zhan Zhuang and I do know from experience that things by the same name in CMA are not all alike.

But in retrospect Chen Zhenglei had it as part of Chan Si Jin and a few other Chen Qigong forms and it was not long, I believe about 10 minutes, but then he did not really put any time constraint on it. And a set of VCDs I got of Chen Xiaowang also trained Zhan Zhuang as part of Chan Si Jin and it was also not all that long. But I do believe he said something about as you train it will get longer. As for Santi, I never got past 20 minutes per side, I feel that I learned a lot form it but eventually it fell victim to time, I just don’t have the time to do it all.

The whole point of this, I guess, is whatever works for you

 

[mograph]

It's not just about time spent standing.

Depending on how we spend our day, there are certain small physical violations we do to our bodies, such as hunching shoulders, tightening our lower back and so on. These show up as tension in the body that can be relieved by Zhan Zhuang. The amount of time it takes to relieve these tensions varies from individual to individual. However, in my experience, it takes about ten minutes to relieve the shoulders, ten for the arms, ten for the back, ten for the legs ... it's different every time. Once I get past that point though, I find a kind of satori, or a strange turning sensation, or other physical sensations.

Now if a person can get those sensations in five minutes of standing, then he's a fortunate individual. But if he stood longer, who knows what he might experience?

Anyway, thanks for the forum, and sorry if I offended anyone.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I wanted to speak about my experience with Zhan Zhuang.

I first learned it as a Qigong exercise the teaching was just stand there.
Of course just standing there is a waste of time and looking back at it now I think my teacher at that point was either not knowledgable on the subject or trying to say it will come in time.

When I did practice Yiquan rooting,relaxing and so on started to take shape. As my teacher in Yiquan said "Yiquan will help you in other arts as well"

I then got more into Zhan Zhuang when I studied in Wang shu jins linerage. He practiced it often and would pause from circle walking to do it. Thru Xingyi santi and Zhan Zhuang practice I feel lighter,flexible,relaxed,rooted,sunk,loose and open.

When I do not see my teacher for a while he sometimes remarks how my form looks good despite having not seen him to correct me. Of course practicing the form plays a part in this but I also told him I practice Zhan Zhuang and Santi more than form in which he smiled.
IMO if you can move in stillness(internally) and be still in movement(internally) I think it greatly helps your connected whole in performing the forms.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

It's not just about time spent standing.

Depending on how we spend our day, there are certain small physical violations we do to our bodies, such as hunching shoulders, tightening our lower back and so on. These show up as tension in the body that can be relieved by Zhan Zhuang. The amount of time it takes to relieve these tensions varies from individual to individual. However, in my experience, it takes about ten minutes to relieve the shoulders, ten for the arms, ten for the back, ten for the legs ... it's different every time. Once I get past that point though, I find a kind of satori, or a strange turning sensation, or other physical sensations.

Now if a person can get those sensations in five minutes of standing, then he's a fortunate individual. But if he stood longer, who knows what he might experience?

Anyway, thanks for the forum, and sorry if I offended anyone.

No offense taken. I just wanted to get my point across. Sorry to use a 2x4.

I see what you're saying but some of us get the postural benefits from other practices or awareness. For example, bring the practice and awareness from training into your everyday life by realizing when you're holding your body in a wrong position and correct accordingly. Try not to have bad posture as much as you can throughout the day and you'll minimize spending time in zhanzhuang correcting this stuff. See what I mean?

But it's good IMO that you're focusing on something other than time.

So extend that thinking: as your posture improves, what will you spend your time in zhanzhuang doing?

Not to offend anyone so please don't take it that way but think of this: what is the point of standing? What are you trying to develop?

The length of time spent, the visualizations, all those things are crutches towards something. What is that something? What happens when you take the crutches away?

When you figure that out and start working directly instead of tangentially on the goal, then progress comes much faster.

 

[mograph]

For example, bring the practice and awareness from training into your everyday life by realizing when you're holding your body in a wrong position and correct accordingly.

Formosa Neijia, I agree entirely. I use Zhan Zhuang (ZZ) to help improve my day-to-day posture as well as the way I interact with forces (doors, lifting, sports) as often as possible.

So extend that thinking: as your posture improves, what will you spend your time in zhanzhuang doing?

I think I see where you're going: as the posture improves ... the role of ZZ diminishes. The logical conclusion would then be that ZZ would eventually serve no purpose. Do read on, though.

Not to offend anyone so please don't take it that way but think of this: what is the point of standing? What are you trying to develop?

No offense taken -- that's a very good question. I'll try to answer to the best of my own experience: regarding ZZ to correct the daily indignities of working at a computer and waking up in a middle-aged body, I think I'll always need it to fix myself. Also, I've found that ZZ increases my stamina and energy where, at the very least, I feel better after doing it.

I suppose that's the crux of it. I feel better after doing it. It works for now.

Regarding working towards something, I see it as more of a direction than a goal -- like a vector, with its direction being more energy and a feeling of well-being, its magnitude being the frequency and quality of practice.

The length of time spent, the visualizations, all those things are crutches towards something. What is that something? What happens when you take the crutches away?

Another good question, one which has occurred to me on a number of occasions. After some reflection, I don't see them as crutches, but bridges. As you know, certain teaching methods could be looked at as creating bridges between "don't know" and "know". The student is taught them with the understanding that they would rely on them less and less, or possibly reach an epiphany where they can access the energy naturally and spontaneously without the bridges. Some people don't need those bridges on their path. Some do.

When you figure that out and start working directly instead of tangentially on the goal, then progress comes much faster.

In my opinion, "directly" isn't absolute -- it's relative. Each student has his or her own paths to knowledge, based on personal experience, tendencies, habits, values and world view. The methods I've described don't work for everybody -- some require closer links between "don't know" and "know". The path may be longer, but the links are closer. To each his own.

Thanks for the discussion. I look forward to more.