How important in Conditioning to you

[jobo]

By picking a definition and working with it. To me, "core" is the muscles with primary involvement in keeping us upright from the pelvis up (so, not the legs,etc.) to the clavicles (so not the neck). Pecs wouldn't be in there.

but he has included the traps, and they don't keep you up right, , where as the legs which you have excluded do indeed play an important role in keeping us upright, try it with out them its really difficult

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but he has included the traps, and they don't keep you up right, , where as the legs which you have excluded do indeed play an important role in keeping us upright, try it with out them its really difficult

I purposely excluded the legs, and specified in my definition that I included things that keep us upright between the pelvis and clavicles. My legs aren't in that area, are yours?

And I know he included the traps. I wouldn't, so I have a different definition. I likely wouldn't include the lats as a primary target, either.

 

[jobo]

I purposely excluded the legs, and specified in my definition that I included things that keep us upright between the pelvis and clavicles. My legs aren't in that area, are yours?

And I know he included the traps. I wouldn't, so I have a different definition. I likely wouldn't include the lats as a primary target, either.

my point exactly, every one say core work is important, but very few can agree, what's in the,core.

that said, i do a mean dragon flag, but only to show off

my view is, moving your arms and legs,about weighted or other wise naturally works you core, there is little need to work it separately unless you have a specific weakness you are trying to address, the glutes on the other hand, which no one,seems to included are crucial and very hard to actually work in anything but glute specific exercises

 

[Gerry Seymour]

my point exactly, every one say core work is important, but very few can agree, what's in the,core.

that said, i do a mean dragon flag, but only to show off

my view is, moving your arms and legs,about weighted or other wise naturally works you core, there is little need to work it separately unless you have a specific weakness you are trying to address, the glutes on the other hand, which no one,seems to included are crucial and very hard to actually work in anything but glute specific exercises

Actually, there is an additional need to work it separately for some folks. In grappling arts, the core is especially important. Strengthening it gives more control and can help avoid injury. And it's one of the areas where strength matters most (along with grip) when fighting against another grappler.

Outside those areas, it's probably true that we can get that core exercise without specifically targeting it. I think core targeting came about for two reasons: fixing weaknesses (as you suggested), and to compliment overly-isolating training regimens (like Nautilus machines).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

my point exactly, every one say core work is important, but very few can agree, what's in the,core.

that said, i do a mean dragon flag, but only to show off

my view is, moving your arms and legs,about weighted or other wise naturally works you core, there is little need to work it separately unless you have a specific weakness you are trying to address, the glutes on the other hand, which no one,seems to included are crucial and very hard to actually work in anything but glute specific exercises

I forgot to finish agreeing with you. Things like farmer's carry bring a lot of core development, as does grappling work. So there are plenty of ways to develop the core without having to specifically target it, unless you're in one of the three groups I mentioned.

 

[jobo]

Actually, there is an additional need to work it separately for some folks. In grappling arts, the core is especially important. Strengthening it gives more control and can help avoid injury. And it's one of the areas where strength matters most (along with grip) when fighting against another grappler.

Outside those areas, it's probably true that we can get that core exercise without specifically targeting it. I think core targeting came about for two reasons: fixing weaknesses (as you suggested), and to compliment overly-isolating training regimens (like Nautilus machines).

i don't know what a nautilus machine is, i though that was a,submarine?

but yes gym isolation machines are the work of the devil

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i don't know what a nautilus machine is, i though that was a,submarine?

but yes gym isolation machines are the work of the devil

Nautilus is a brand of gym equipment. They produced (and still do, as far as I know) machines that over-isolate. So, when doing a bicep curl, no support muscles were involved, and certainly no core.

 

[donald1]

conditioning is probably the my favorite part about martial arts. you throw a punch or a kick. and its immediatly blocked really hard and leaves a painful bruise. not fun right? conditioning helps! my favorite conditioning is kotekitai (arm and leg conditioning)

 

[FighterTwister]

that's a comprehensive answer, but different than what the other guy has said they are, he has focused on the abs area and lower back, you seem to have included just,about,all the muscles in the torso, with the,exception of the pecs for some reason?

how are you supposed to do a core work out if nobody can agree what/ where the core is?

Lower Back and all Abdominal muscle groups are also correct as well they are the main power sources to using the full hip and transfer of energy to legs and arms in martial arts.

Yes I must have missed some including the pecs as well in the end though its the whole body you need to work that is connected and working the entire body including tendons and ligaments that will output maximum peak performance especially if you are an athlete or pro fighter.

Allot of martial art warm ups have this intent to warm the blood loosen tendons and ligaments and work the muscle groups.

I'm not a sports science specialist neither am I a doctor, I just speak from experience or to my knowledge and understanding in the years spent training thats all I can offer in the thread discussion for input..............

We need more......................

LoL

 

[jobo]

Lower Back and all Abdominal muscle groups are also correct as well they are the main power sources to using the full hip and transfer of energy to legs and arms in martial arts.

Yes I must have missed some including the pecs as well in the end though its the whole body you need to work that is connected and working the entire body including tendons and ligaments that will output maximum peak performance especially if you are an athlete or pro fighter.

Allot of martial art warm ups have this intent to warm the blood loosen tendons and ligaments and work the muscle groups.

I'm not a sports science specialist neither am I a doctor, I just speak from experience or to my knowledge and understanding in the years spent training thats all I can offer in the thread discussion for input..............

We need more......................

LoL

yes and no, i agree that core is important, what ever people are actually defining as the core, but not as some seem to suggest more important than any other muscle grouping, its more or less useless unless you have equally developed shoulder gurdle/ arms and legs/ glutes etal. AND the body is so interconected, that an over developed muscle grouping is every bit as bad as an under developed one.

For instance a lot of lower back problems have little to do with a weak lower back, but come from under developed glutes and hamstrings,.
strengthening you lower back further will make the problem worse not better. That why i favour whole body movements, that naturally develop the whole muscle chain in the proportions that it requires. Rather than just trying to isolate specific core muscles, that then cause you imbalance problem elsewhere.

at the end of the day, these are by and large postural muscles
, and their first and prime responsibility to to give you correct posture. The,abs should keep your guts in and you back should hold you upright, if they are not doing that, they are failing. And you develop that by walking around upright with you guts held in, you don't need fancy core exercises

And they need to be in balance with each other to do that, as well as in ballance with every other group to give you both posture and movement against resistance

 

[FighterTwister]

yes and no, i agree that core is important, what ever people are actually defining as the core, but not as some seem to suggest more important than any other muscle grouping, its more or less useless unless you have equally developed shoulder gurdle/ arms and legs/ glutes etal. AND the body is so interconected, that an over developed muscle grouping is every bit as bad as an under developed one.

For instance a lot of lower back problems have little to do with a weak lower back, but come from under developed glutes and hamstrings,.
strengthening you lower back further will make the problem worse not better. That why i favour whole body movements, that naturally develop the whole muscle chain in the proportions that it requires. Rather than just trying to isolate specific core muscles, that then cause you imbalance problem elsewhere.

at the end of the day, these are by and large postural muscles
, and their first and prime responsibility to to give you correct posture. The,abs should keep your guts in and you back should hold you upright, if they are not doing that, they are failing. And you develop that by walking around upright with you guts held in, you don't need fancy core exercises

And they need to be in balance with each other to do that, as well as in ballance with every other group to give you both posture and movement against resistance

I agree of course with the above view, you are just taking the conversation a little bit further into the science than most would rather engage in. (We are commoners LoL)

This is difficult to discuss without having had formal qualifications on this subject to be honest, most of us here are not qualified enough to have a deep conversation but just the knowledge that is passed on.

Its one of the reasons especially in Boxing they have certain methods of training that develop muscles over time and certain chemicals that are built up and developed over long periods of time especially to do with the brain and connecting tissues so.

A discussion I had with a boxing trainer years ago.

Sometimes i wish I was a cockroach with a exoskeleton system meaning bones outside and soft tissues inside LoL

Anyway i agree and this also is where some work with proper body builders and fitness instructors payoff especially if your are going pro and entering competition fights.

But also good for knowledge and personal awareness.

 

[JR 137]

my point exactly, every one say core work is important, but very few can agree, what's in the,core.

that said, i do a mean dragon flag, but only to show off

my view is, moving your arms and legs,about weighted or other wise naturally works you core, there is little need to work it separately unless you have a specific weakness you are trying to address, the glutes on the other hand, which no one,seems to included are crucial and very hard to actually work in anything but glute specific exercises

"The core" is quite vague and often misused by most people. In the sports medicine and rehab setting, most of us referred to the core as the muscles that primarily stabilize the torso (my working definition of it). We may argue about which muscles exactly, how and when they stabilize, and the importance of some individual muscles, but we were pretty much on the same page.

Here's my layperson's way to understand it...

Have someone stand in an athletic stance (knees slightly bent, shoulder width, slightly staggered, etc). Put both of your hands on their chest and push (not so much shove, because that'll make them have to move their feet to keep balance). Push on their shoulder blades, and on their side deltoids. Try to twist the person too.

The muscles that keep their torso from bending and twisting are the core muscles. A strong core will keep you from getting pushed over, and it'll make you stronger in pushing and pulling. Bench pressing 300 lbs won't do much for you if you're going to push something like a refrigerator. If you can't keep your torso stable while you push or pull, your arms, shoulders/chest strength isn't very relevant.

Some people are naturally very strong in their core, others aren't. I know a lot of people who are very "strong" yet can be pushed over relatively easily. I also know a lot of people who don't do any strength training and pushing them is like trying to move a mountain.

I used to work with a Div 1 soccer team. Those guys hated strength training. They'd always say soccer players don't need strength, they need speed and skill. Yet those same guys would always get pushed off the ball and rarely get a call. Proper core strength would pretty much eliminate that. They didn't have a comeback when I pointed that out. They were highly skilled, and at one point the number 15 team in the country.