How does self defense work in Tournements?

[dmdfromhamilton]

The other day i heard about self defense divisions in tournements and i was wondering how they work. I personaly was puzled as if you use self defense techniques corectly and at full force your partner will be seriously injured but anybody can do them well at slow speed.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

Well it doesnt really! You can apply some techniques in tournaments that could be used in self defence I'm guessing grappling sports right? Help me out here guys? But as in TKD sparring and self defence are different.
I'm not entirelly sure but self defence and tournaments are two different mind sets and ideas, maybe there's a cross over line at some point, if there is its certainly not a large one!

Regards

 

[dmdfromhamilton]

I was actually talking about a division in a tournement for "open self defense" this tournement had different grappling/point sparring divisions

 

[shane23ss]

I was actually talking about a division in a tournement for "open self defense" this tournement had different grappling/point sparring divisions

Is this tournament open to any system. Could say a TKD fighter and BJJ fighter compete against each other? What would decide who won?

 

[MJS]

Most tournies today have many different divsions.

1- sparring

2- kata

3- SD

4- open

5- team

6- grappling

It all comes down to the promoter of the event. As for the TKD fighter and grappler...if you're asking if they would compete...again, depends on the division. If its your point sparring devision, then no, the grappler would not grappler while the TKD guy throws punches/kicks. However, if it was a MMA event, then yes, they both would compete.

Mike

 

[Kunoichi]

Whats the difference between the sparring and the self defence? Does the self defence include weapons, multiple attackers, stuff to get in the way (i.e not an open mat) or is it anything goes, 1 on 1?

 

[Floating Egg]

Well, I think with self-defense, you're trying to protect something, but with sparring you're trying to achieve another goal. I don't think self-defense can be appropriately modeled without an actual threat, and it's a much larger issue than being able to trade blows. Awareness and running away are forms of self-defense. Not walking down a dark alley at night is self-defense. Slowly backing away from a territorial dog is self-defense.

 

[MJS]

Whats the difference between the sparring and the self defence? Does the self defence include weapons, multiple attackers, stuff to get in the way (i.e not an open mat) or is it anything goes, 1 on 1?

Again, much depends on the event. Usually a description of all events, rules/regs, etc. is included on the application. The sparring is usually based on a point system. The matches are timed and will end when A) time runs out, the person with more points will win, B) a certain number of points is attained prior to time running out. Kicks and punches are allowed to the body.

The SD divisions: Again, much will depend on the rules. I've seen some where one person would run through a series of attacks with various attackers attacking him. I've seen it done empty hand as well as with weapons. Just like a breaking event, alot of times they are looking for creativity.

Mike

 

[Kunoichi]

Slowly backing away from a territorial dog is self-defense

Hehe maybe for self defence competitions they could unleash an angry dog on the competitors. Add a garden fence for some more realism and I think it could be a great event

MJS - I can see how they might be different now, thanks. Wouldn't it be really hard to fairly judge? If its multiple attackers do the same people attack each competitor or does each school gang up on the person from the other school? Do both competitors get the same attacks or do they get different scenarios? (sorry about all the questions, I just find it hard to see how self defence can be a competition unless you dont tell the people that they are entered into it )

 

[MJS]

MJS - I can see how they might be different now, thanks. Wouldn't it be really hard to fairly judge? If its multiple attackers do the same people attack each competitor or does each school gang up on the person from the other school? Do both competitors get the same attacks or do they get different scenarios? (sorry about all the questions, I just find it hard to see how self defence can be a competition unless you dont tell the people that they are entered into it )

Don't worry about the questions...that is what this forum is for. I'll do my best to provide you with an answer.

As I said, alot is based on creativity. For example: You could have 6 students from the same school. They would all enter the same event, as a team, representing their school. Student 1 would be the 'defender' while 2-6 are the 'attackers'. It is a pre-arranged SD event. The event is timed. The judges are looking for techs. that are executed clean, with good form, how creative they were with the performance, etc. Each school or group performs seperately.

Mike

 

[Chronuss]

The other day i heard about self defense divisions in tournements and i was wondering how they work. I personaly was puzled as if you use self defense techniques corectly and at full force your partner will be seriously injured but anybody can do them well at slow speed.

Most of the time self defense divisions allow people to show how their system would practically deal with an attack, can be empty hand, can be weapon oriented, can be a single opponent or multiple, can have a theme or doesn't have to. Granted, all self defense technique demonstrations I've seen at tournaments we're American Kenpo, so I really don't have a grasp on what other system that would show any determined set of movements labeled as a self defense technique in a tournament. On a side note, one of the best demonstrations I've seen was at the Boston IKC's by Josh Ryer and his crew from Pittsburgh.

 

[The Prof]

The way it's supposed to work is this way: The techniques demonstrated are supposed to be authentic in that they can be used in a real defensive/combative situations. In other words, they are supposedto be "street-wise" tactics. However, these types of techniques are not appealing to the "untrained" eyes of the judges and largely the spectators who cheer wildly for stupid so-called self defense techniques that would get you killed in you tried to use them in a life or death situation. As a result, the "theatrical" style of self defense wins out. Here is the worse example: a seven year old child, beating the hell out of a 200 lb man using theatrical self defense. A ligitemate self defense situation does not stand a chance here.

What blows my mind is that these judges (and the spectators) cannot separate fact from fiction when it comes to self defense. The self defense category at these tournaments have absolutely nothing to do with self defense. It's just another way for promoters to make money. But then making money is the American way, and we can't blame them for wanting to support themselves and their families. (forgive any typo's in this message)

The Prof

 

[Simon Curran]

The way it's supposed to work is this way: The techniques demonstrated are supposed to be authentic in that they can be used in a real defensive/combative situations. In other words, they are supposedto be "street-wise" tactics. However, these types of techniques are not appealing to the "untrained" eyes of the judges and largely the spectators who cheer wildly for stupid so-called self defense techniques that would get you killed in you tried to use them in a life or death situation. As a result, the "theatrical" style of self defense wins out. Here is the worse example: a seven year old child, beating the hell out of a 200 lb man using theatrical self defense. A ligitemate self defense situation does not stand a chance here.

What blows my mind is that these judges (and the spectators) cannot separate fact from fiction when it comes to self defense. The self defense category at these tournaments have absolutely nothing to do with self defense. It's just another way for promoters to make money. But then making money is the American way, and we can't blame them for wanting to support themselves and their families. (forgive any typo's in this message)

The Prof

Well said, my thoughts exactly (except about the American way, I think it is the human being way)

 

[Bod]

I was re-reading the Book of Five Rings last night, and Musashi starts with a rant on bogus instructors with bogus lineages, teaching flashy inneffective get-you-killed techniques for the sake of profit.

Nothing changes in near on 400 years.

 

[Chronuss]

well, the self defense technique demos I've witnessed (granted, I've only ever seen EPAK practioners ever do SD in tournaments) have been practical and effective. they were devoid of all the jumping, spinning, nonsensical kicks, strikes, and kias that make people sound like they're constipated.

 

[dmdfromhamilton]

and kias that make people sound like they're constipated.

I've seen some of those in forms competitions even a few in sparring made me want to hurt the ppl :whip: but hey we gotta be nice mayby they'll realize how stupid they look eventually

 

[Chronuss]

no...they don't...otherwise they wouldn't let it reoccur...but I certainly enjoy laughing at them.

 

[The Prof]

I do stand corrected, in a good way. It is as you said, it is the human being way.

Prof.

Well said, my thoughts exactly (except about the American way, I think it is the human being way)