How does he do it?

[oaktree]

All this chi magic reminds me of a story.
I had a friend who use to believe in magic and every day he would go in his room and practice his magic. Eventually he grew into his late 30's never looking to work or do anything but do his magic and living in his parents home.

 

[Zeny]

None of the demonstators in the videos i linked has said their fajin is done with chi.

 

[oaktree]

Zeny you seem to want to look for magical ways of applications and having linked actual fights in other threads for you none of the guys in your video can fight if they needed to. So yes maybe it looks cool and wow but it's like watching a magician and building false hope of actual combative skills. When I teach I don't teach bs my students some of them grew up fighting so there is no bs in the approach.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

None of the demonstators in the videos i linked has said their fajin is done with chi.

I don't care if they call it chi or fajin or physics or Martian mind control rays. The fact is that in the first 2 videos the demo dummies are throwing themselves around in a way which is not based on the actual physical movements of the demonstrator. It's either conscious fakery or (more likely, IMO) the result of self-hypnosis and psychological conditioning. If the demonstrator tried the same movements with someone who hadn't been taught to respond that way, the results would be completely different.

The 3rd video has actual legitimate technique. The demo dummies are just overselling it to various degrees.

 

[Xue Sheng]

None of the demonstators in the videos i linked has said their fajin is done with chi.

There is no fajin without qi.

 

[Xue Sheng]

White crane punch of death. Against that, none will stand. It's been proven. In a court of law, no less. And written about in peer-reviewed journals. Of the scientific variety.

You seem to have forgotten.... the mighty and all powerful style of.....XUEFU!!!!!!!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Interesting hypothesis. If I understand you, it begins with a legitimate expression of technique, and proceeds incrementally through conditioning and suggestion.

The technique seems similar to classical conditioning, where the unconditioned stimulus (US) would be the actual, initial pushes from the teacher, and the corresponding unconditioned response (UR) would be the fall in response to a real push. Next, the conditioning would consist of the suggestion of the teacher's abilities, along with the witnessing of the technique performed on previously conditioned students; along with a gradual reduction of the visible movement (and push effort) of the teacher. As a result, what would be a neutral stimulus (NS) to a non-student (the light touch), has become a conditioned stimulus (CS) to the student, leading to a conditioned reaction (CR): the light touch (NS -> CS) results in a physical response (CR).

Classical conditioning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps more an example of Shaping, since that produces a progressive series of responses based upon rewards for progressive approximations of the desired behavior. This isn't a pure example of shaping (it does follow some of the principles of both Classical Conditioning and Operant Conditioning), but it's likely the approval of the instructor and other students that serves as the reward, and the student gradually becomes more and more "responsive" - giving a larger response to a smaller input.

 

[mograph]

Perhaps more an example of Shaping, since that produces a progressive series of responses based upon rewards for progressive approximations of the desired behavior. This isn't a pure example of shaping (it does follow some of the principles of both Classical Conditioning and Operant Conditioning), but it's likely the approval of the instructor and other students that serves as the reward, and the student gradually becomes more and more "responsive" - giving a larger response to a smaller input.

Good catch. I eschewed the operant path because of what I saw as a lack of reward, but the instructor's attention (and, as you wrote, approval) is a reward. "Pick me, Sifu!"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Good catch. I eschewed the operant path because of what I saw as a lack of reward, but the instructor's attention (and, as you wrote, approval) is a reward. "Pick me, Sifu!"

And a powerful reward for most folks - more so to some people, and maybe those are the people who are drawn to these instructors.

By the way, shaping can also happen to perception. It's entirely possible (and likely in some cases, given their apparently sincere attempts to work with skeptics and challengers) that some of these instructors truly believe they are that good. It doesn't help that there are actual, workable techniques that seem just as mysterious.

For instance, I had someone from Yanagi-ryu demonstrate something to me in a seminar without explaining what was going to happen. He had me try to punch him in the chest. When I did, he used his hand to change my targeting (apparently something they spent a lot of time working on), and I simply missed without him moving. It looked like a damned Jedi mind trick, because the movement of the hand looks like Obi Wan waving his hand at the Storm Troopers on Tatooine. I had to believe in that one, since I didn't know what was supposed to happen beforehand, but it worked. Not something I'd want to trust in a fight, but interesting.

 

[zzj]

I'm not going to stick my foot into these threads that Zeny has posted, as I have told him I do not pretend to know enough about all these to have an opinion. That said, have a look at this video, especially Adam Mizner's freestyle demo from 5:02 onwards.*I'm outta here*

 

[oaktree]

I'm not going to stick my foot into these threads that Zeny has posted, as I have told him I do not pretend to know enough about all these to have an opinion. That said, have a look at this video, especially Adam Mizner's freestyle demo from 5:02 onwards.*I'm outta here*

The girl way in the back in the black top and skirt looks kinda of cute not the one sitting on the red chair that one seems ok...the one next to the ugly one holding the pink thing may be third best. The one girl white shirt black pants top of green bleachers looks cute too. I get distracted easy by cute girls.
My wife calls me bian tai.I think that means I am a nice guy

 

[mograph]

I get distracted easy by cute girls.

Did you see the video of Ian Sinclair (Tai Chi vs. MMA) that I posted in another thread? There's a pole dancer doing a demo (not like that!) in the background. I think you'd like it.

 

[oaktree]

Did you see the video of Ian Sinclair (Tai Chi vs. MMA) that I posted in another thread? There's a pole dancer doing a demo (not like that!) in the background. I think you'd like it.

Omg she is polishing the pole too her stroke work is impeccable.

 

[mograph]

Omg she is polishing the pole too her stroke work is impeccable.

Ya gotta respect professionals.

 

[Zeny]

What about this video? Is it BS?

 

[Tez3]

If the demonstrator tried the same movements with someone who hadn't been taught to respond that way, the results would be completely different.

Ah but one can't demonstrate on outsiders because it's 'too dangerous', it always has to be a student who has been trained and can take the pain/being KO'd.

 

[oaktree]

Because you can't always throw and if you are pushing properly, or understand a push in Taiji it also uproots. So it takes advantage of center of gravity. Also if you watch 3rd OP video closely, they are not all pushes.

My question then is what do you do if you can't throw?

If you can't throw then look for another way to bring him down. For example let's use seoi nage a common arm throw. If you get the arm break it first over the shoulder so you got that at least. If you are not getting under his center of gravity for what ever reason, then you could step to the side and behind him under the arm you hold and choke and kick out his back of knee.
In essence, if you can't throw adapt to another technique because nothing looks more sad then trying to throw someone and you can't throw them.

 

[oaktree]

What about this video? Is it BS?

Actually I didn't mind that video, looks more plausible. If something looks plausible then I will say so, if not I will say it looks like bs. For me, I would have to touch hands. I have felt fa jin pushes and they have pushed me back so I do but in it, but it wasn't so exaggerated and my teacher said proper lining up of the body to the point of off balance. I am a big advocate of realism in self defense. I was telling my student this that we can do Taijiquan for health if that is your main focus, but I want you to look at the applications to have an idea. As teacher's in my opinion, what we partake in knowledge we want our students to defend themselves intelligently and give them all we have to offer. I feel giving a student a low percentage method of dealing with an attacker is irresponsible. I recall the first time I asked my student to throw a punch I said leaving your arm out for me to demonstrate and talk about points is good however, in real life this won't work so throw your punch and snap it back to ready position.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Zeny

I am still not entirely sure what the true point of this thread is but you may want to familiarize yourself with MT Rules, specifically these

1.10.2 No Art bashing.

1. No one art is "the best", no one "style" is the best. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Do your research and find what best fits your ability and need.
   
   
   1.10.3 No Individual Bashing / Fraud Busting.
   
   It is not our mission to out and expose frauds or decide who "sucks". Such discussions rarely lead anywhere other than to headaches, and lawsuits.
   

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What about this video? Is it BS?

I don't have a problem with that one. I'd have to touch hands with the teacher myself to fully gauge his skill level and I don't know for sure how deliberately compliant his demo partner was being, but at least the teacher was using real techniques and his demo partner was reacting to the actual technique being performed rather than throwing himself based on a non-verbal suggestion.