How bad does not sparring effect you in a real street fight situation ?

[Kong Soo Do]

The state and federal authorities don't have a problem with TMA and its competitions. It does however have a major problem with yours and is constantly trying to ban it. MMA needs to unite with TMA and both stand together to keep a entire style from being banned. Which it is in some places. MMA's continual arrogance and egotistical BS will be its eventually down fall. You guys need to take your chips off your shoulders, and pull you heads out of the sand and unite with other arts instead of constantly bashing them and tearing them down.

This is something I've just not understood well over the years, be it MMA or TKD or any art that has it's main focus on sporting competition. I would never claim that RBSD or scenario based training is great for competition because it just isn't. It wasn't designed to meet the needs of that venue. That doesn't diminish the usefulness of RBSD or scenario based training in the venue for which it was designed. Conversely, sparring or bag work or speed bag or whatever training works well for the venue in which it was designed to be used in. That it isn't the best methodology for a different venue doesn't diminish it's usefulness in the sporting venue.

MMA can be well conditioned practitioners of their art. That's a good thing. Some of what is learned can be useful outside of the sport venue. That's also a good thing. It just isn't optimal in some cases, and detrimental in other cases for the SD venue. But again, that doesn't diminish the MMArtist in any way and should never be taken as such.

A screwdriver is a very useful tool. It is great for putting a screw into something. Kinda sucks as far as brain surgery but then it really wasn't designed for that purpose. The fact it kinda sucks for brain surgery doesn't diminish the overall usefulness of the screwdriver for other tasks within the scope of it's design.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Drop bear, you keep mentioning that sparring teaches the fundamental basics. Im sorry but you are wrong, and who ever taught you is wrong. You should have ALREADY learned those basics, out side of sparring. Sparring is not the place to learn a technique correctly. It is were you go to learn when to apply it appropriately. That is my issue and part of why i quit MMA. They spend not nearly enough time not sparring and doing the boring #### like pad work and partner drills. Especially the partner drills. I gained more from them then i did in any other thing.

Hence why on sherdog you constantly get threads about the piss poor state of striking in mma. They just don't spend enough time on the basics, out side of sparring. Oh and for proof all i have to do is watch any mma fight in the last 10 years and all i see out side of a few people is craptacular striking and standup.. It is essentially BJJ with some striking for the flavor and a potential payday.

Your nonsense about mma guys constantly dominating on the street is far fetched. I guess someone forgot to tell Miquel Falco and his friend. One of which was a UFC Fighter, the other a Professional boxer. Before you jump in and say it was 5 on 2 let me clue you in. The first exchange, was in a small space, in a door way, with only 2 aggressors making it 2v2. The others were not engaged at that point. Our MMA hero, the man with the single greatest fighting style and training methodology in your opinion violated the number one rule in a mma fight right off the god Darned batt. Which is KEEP YOUR HANDS UP. At no point in that exchange, did he ever assume a fighting stance, or even have his hands up En guard. They were by his sides the whole time, and all of his strikes you see, were all haymakers. Yep that was Dang nice performance by a top teir fighter using the supposed best training methodology. Not to mention his Pro boxer friend whose career is over because of his idiot friend.

Your the type of sherdog poster i cant stand, if it isn't the mma holy trinity, then its crap and needs to die. This attitude of your art sucks and you suck or doing it is ridiculous, especially at a time when martial artists of all flavors need to be coming together in support of each other not fighting each other. Wanna know why?

The state and federal authorities don't have a problem with TMA and its competitions. It does however have a major problem with yours and is constantly trying to ban it. MMA needs to unite with TMA and both stand together to keep a entire style from being banned. Which it is in some places. MMA's continual arrogance and egotistical BS will be its eventually down fall. You guys need to take your chips off your shoulders, and pull you heads out of the sand and unite with other arts instead of constantly bashing them and tearing them down.

Excellent post but I don't think its the sand they need to pull their heads out of.

 

[drop bear]

That really depends upon how you are defining sparring.

I am using the critique definition an artificial environment with people hitting padded opponents. For this. And basically to make the point that there are little differences between training methodology.

Sparring I went for an open plane with resisting oponants because sparring isn't scripted or situational I define situational or combat scenarios as drills mostly.

 

[drop bear]

Drop bear, you keep mentioning that sparring teaches the fundamental basics. Im sorry but you are wrong, and who ever taught you is wrong. You should have ALREADY learned those basics, out side of sparring. Sparring is not the place to learn a technique correctly. It is were you go to learn when to apply it appropriately. That is my issue and part of why i quit MMA. They spend not nearly enough time not sparring and doing the boring #### like pad work and partner drills. Especially the partner drills. I gained more from them then i did in any other thing.

Hence why on sherdog you constantly get threads about the piss poor state of striking in mma. They just don't spend enough time on the basics, out side of sparring. Oh and for proof all i have to do is watch any mma fight in the last 10 years and all i see out side of a few people is craptacular striking and standup.. It is essentially BJJ with some striking for the flavor and a potential payday.

Your nonsense about mma guys constantly dominating on the street is far fetched. I guess someone forgot to tell Miquel Falco and his friend. One of which was a UFC Fighter, the other a Professional boxer. Before you jump in and say it was 5 on 2 let me clue you in. The first exchange, was in a small space, in a door way, with only 2 aggressors making it 2v2. The others were not engaged at that point. Our MMA hero, the man with the single greatest fighting style and training methodology in your opinion violated the number one rule in a mma fight right off the god Darned batt. Which is KEEP YOUR HANDS UP. At no point in that exchange, did he ever assume a fighting stance, or even have his hands up En guard. They were by his sides the whole time, and all of his strikes you see, were all haymakers. Yep that was Dang nice performance by a top teir fighter using the supposed best training methodology. Not to mention his Pro boxer friend whose career is over because of his idiot friend.

Your the type of sherdog poster i cant stand, if it isn't the mma holy trinity, then its crap and needs to die. This attitude of your art sucks and you suck or doing it is ridiculous, especially at a time when martial artists of all flavors need to be coming together in support of each other not fighting each other. Wanna know why?

The state and federal authorities don't have a problem with TMA and its competitions. It does however have a major problem with yours and is constantly trying to ban it. MMA needs to unite with TMA and both stand together to keep a entire style from being banned. Which it is in some places. MMA's continual arrogance and egotistical BS will be its eventually down fall. You guys need to take your chips off your shoulders, and pull you heads out of the sand and unite with other arts instead of constantly bashing them and tearing them down.

I am bashing other styles by saying my system has as much merit as yours?

If that is going to upset you then you are going to have to get used to being upset.

OK to improve your knowledge of mma a bit.

You do not have real knowledge of your skills until you have tested them against a resisting oponant. Padwork and drills and sparring are used to achieve this method. If your training wasn't any good then you need to seek better training in this.

In Melbourne nemisis is one of the top gyms there. And you will also get to train with guys who embrace and exel in both sport and reality training.

http://www.teamnemesis.com.au

I am not sure what you have read of sherdog. But your understanding of mma is limited here. It has not been bjj with crappy punches for about ten years.

Now in regards to boxing and mma. Boxing is only part of the system i do. So to step in the ring against a boxer. I need to have better fundamental basics to win. There is no excuse that I don't train for boxing because the skills transfer from mma to boxing and to self defence.

It is my lack of skill that determins whether I do well or poorly. Not some tired reasoning about how I would win if I only could grapple or something. It is not honest.

I have seen the video of that fight he got hit in the head with a steel pole. I don't have an answer to that I don't pretend to. I try to be honest about my ability to deal with numbers and weapons.

But here is my one example of mma working in the street. So now we are even.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PzCsznE_JE8


I am not the kind of sherdog poster that will accept personal attacks. Especially untrue ones.

Mma and tma is standing together to unite. Mma is allowing a place for multiple platforms to compete in the public arena. For them to collaborate in the gym. And for them to share and better there systems.

You should go to a mma gym and talk to the people there they are more than willing to embrace your ideas if they have merit.

Of course only really one way to show merit. And that is sparring. But there are plenty of tma styles that do well. We have a karate guy who routinely comes in and kicks peoples heads off.

 

[drop bear]

And I notice still no example of an alternative to sparring.

Fine then I will post one.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2j-m3GnHkDY

Now the issue is it is in a controlled environment with people wearing pads and going to ground.

Which is fine because it will prepare you for the street in the same way sparring would.

 

[Kframe]

I am bashing other styles by saying my system has as much merit as yours?

If that is going to upset you then you are going to have to get used to being upset.

OK to improve your knowledge of mma a bit.

You do not have real knowledge of your skills until you have tested them against a resisting oponant. Padwork and drills and sparring are used to achieve this method. If your training wasn't any good then you need to seek better training in this.

In Melbourne nemisis is one of the top gyms there. And you will also get to train with guys who embrace and exel in both sport and reality training.

http://www.teamnemesis.com.au

I am not sure what you have read of sherdog. But your understanding of mma is limited here. It has not been bjj with crappy punches for about ten years.

Now in regards to boxing and mma. Boxing is only part of the system i do. So to step in the ring against a boxer. I need to have better fundamental basics to win. There is no excuse that I don't train for boxing because the skills transfer from mma to boxing and to self defence.

It is my lack of skill that determins whether I do well or poorly. Not some tired reasoning about how I would win if I only could grapple or something. It is not honest.

I have seen the video of that fight he got hit in the head with a steel pole. I don't have an answer to that I don't pretend to. I try to be honest about my ability to deal with numbers and weapons.

But here is my one example of mma working in the street. So now we are even.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PzCsznE_JE8


I am not the kind of sherdog poster that will accept personal attacks. Especially untrue ones.

Mma and tma is standing together to unite. Mma is allowing a place for multiple platforms to compete in the public arena. For them to collaborate in the gym. And for them to share and better there systems.

You should go to a mma gym and talk to the people there they are more than willing to embrace your ideas if they have merit.

Of course only really one way to show merit. And that is sparring. But there are plenty of tma styles that do well. We have a karate guy who routinely comes in and kicks peoples heads off.

Hate to break it to you son but I did train mma. I quit 1.5 years in because of all the crap that is in it so do not tell me I don't know anything about mma

People with your horrid ego, and the poor state of mma training are the reason I quit. So I speak with some experience. We spent way to much time in sparring and not enough time out side of sparring working on the basics. The constant admonition for being not aggressive enough, when im a god dang counter fighter.. Constantly being pushed to be more aggressive and to attack. Guess what, im a counter fighter, I am good with parries and deflections guess what, IM NOT GOING TO ATTACK FIRST. So ya, I did learn a lot, I also learned I hated the inefficient methodology of the ground training. Random techniques every day, nothing tying them together. Which apparently is the norm at bjj clubs. Only the GJJ club focus's on specific positions for a few months be fore moving on..





You can bury your head in the sand all you want but that will not change the state of mma. Again all the proof I need is any mma fight for the last 10 years. THE STAND UP SUCKS. Period. End of story. They do not work enough non sparring. People constantly dropping there hands and chins up and damned haymakers...

Falco got hit later, after the part of the incident were his mma should have nuked the other guys When it was 2 on 2. Yet his crappy stand up skills, didn't allow him to finish them quickly there, so it escalated out side.

Karate is more then kicks.. If that's all he can do, then he must not be very good.


None of what you have posted, has taught me anything. There is no excuse to spar as much as mma does. Pad work and partner drills should come first and more often. Sparring only after you have mastered the movements. Partner drills have proven to be some of the most effect methodologies for me when it comes to learning a technique, not sparring. You do know that partner drills can be amped up and down and the pressure can be enormous If you need it to be. Its that kind of work you need to be doing more of then sparring.

You do know your at a predominantly TMA forum right? If your only point day after day is to come here and bash tma and its various training styles, you can do that on sherdog were it is welcomed.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am using the critique definition an artificial environment with people hitting padded opponents. For this. And basically to make the point that there are little differences between training methodology.

I'm not really sure what you're saying here.

Sparring I went for an open plane with resisting oponants because sparring isn't scripted or situational I define situational or combat scenarios as drills mostly.

Okay, so you mean two or more people facing off under some kind of rule set fighting unscripted for a set duration of time. Is that correct?

I'm not picking your definition apart, by the way; I'm just trying to get a feel for where you're coming from and to be clear as to what you're saying.

 

[drop bear]

Hate to break it to you son but I did train mma. I quit 1.5 years in because of all the crap that is in it so do not tell me I don't know anything about mma

People with your horrid ego, and the poor state of mma training are the reason I quit. So I speak with some experience. We spent way to much time in sparring and not enough time out side of sparring working on the basics. The constant admonition for being not aggressive enough, when im a god dang counter fighter.. Constantly being pushed to be more aggressive and to attack. Guess what, im a counter fighter, I am good with parries and deflections guess what, IM NOT GOING TO ATTACK FIRST. So ya, I did learn a lot, I also learned I hated the inefficient methodology of the ground training. Random techniques every day, nothing tying them together. Which apparently is the norm at bjj clubs. Only the GJJ club focus's on specific positions for a few months be fore moving on..





You can bury your head in the sand all you want but that will not change the state of mma. Again all the proof I need is any mma fight for the last 10 years. THE STAND UP SUCKS. Period. End of story. They do not work enough non sparring. People constantly dropping there hands and chins up and damned haymakers...

Falco got hit later, after the part of the incident were his mma should have nuked the other guys When it was 2 on 2. Yet his crappy stand up skills, didn't allow him to finish them quickly there, so it escalated out side.

Karate is more then kicks.. If that's all he can do, then he must not be very good.


None of what you have posted, has taught me anything. There is no excuse to spar as much as mma does. Pad work and partner drills should come first and more often. Sparring only after you have mastered the movements. Partner drills have proven to be some of the most effect methodologies for me when it comes to learning a technique, not sparring. You do know that partner drills can be amped up and down and the pressure can be enormous If you need it to be. Its that kind of work you need to be doing more of then sparring.

You do know your at a predominantly TMA forum right? If your only point day after day is to come here and bash tma and its various training styles, you can do that on sherdog were it is welcomed.

But ..but.. You have a whole mma section. You even said you welcomed all of these mma guys who were posting valuable information. Ok all that hasn't happened to me but i am sure others have faired better.

I read somewhere it was also a friendly forum.



Why are you so opposed to different methodology? I train with tma guys they train mma. I am trying my best to explain my system and its position on things.

And you come out rage posting and making personal attacks.



The training you did obviously did not work to your standard. That is fine you should not let a bad school tar your impression of a martial art.

As I said go train nemmisis. Their method should be better. And you can even get your boxing and your reality based training on as well.

Now with your conflict in the mma gym. This is where you have to let go of your ego and listen to the guys you have actively sought out to train you. You can't just ignore advice from an instructor. This is important for anybody who is learning a new style they don't understand.

Otherwise when you leave that style you will not have understood it.

Was it Bruce Lee who said that thing about the cup being empty before it can be filled? I think that is good advice.

OK stand up. One of our coaches got his golden gloves and trained a guy who got his silver. We have a kid who was on the Australian boxing team. Our karate guy came second in a national comp. Another coach is going for a title belt in mma. That seems to be an indication of good stand up.

So when you post incorrect information about bad stand up.and bad training. You are going to be corrected on it.

You may have experienced bad training I don't know where did you train mma?

Mma and the street.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lFKiawxEfDI

Now I am one ahead I think. On mma and self defence situations.

I do pad work and partner drills I have said as much constantly.again your assumption is incorrect. We have the mother of all resisted drills that we use to prep fighters for competition. It works fine. I am not disagreeing that drills are important. I am disagreeing that sparring isn't for self defence.

I do not like compliant drills. As a sole method of training. I posted that. I also posted compliant drills have their place.

I am not bashing styles I am suggesting methods to get the most out of your training regardless of your style.

This is why I suggested head gear. Suggested situational drills. Why I will advocate warm ups loose fitting clothing courtesy to your training partner,training on the ground. And other basic safety precautions in training. This should not be a sport fighter thing. This needs to be a training thing.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not really sure what you're saying here.


Okay, so you mean two or more people facing off under some kind of rule set fighting unscripted for a set duration of time. Is that correct?

I'm not picking your definition apart, by the way; I'm just trying to get a feel for where you're coming from and to be clear as to what you're saying.

For the second yes. For the first I am presenting a case that combat scenarios will fall into the same unreality traps as sparring as soon as you add resistance or contact.

That whether or not it is more applicable is a debate. That one is real and one is artificial is not.

So I am kind of using two different descriptions to serve different purposes.

I am trying to be reasonable where I can.

 

[K-man]

This is my problem with compliant drills. And doubley so with this predictive drill idea.

So compliant drills don't work and the type of training I do that you have never seen is less effective again. Mmm! And that is not bagging my training? My training is similar to Hock's training in this regard so I suppose his training is crap too?

The unresisted I throw one punch leave my arm out so my instructor can do a thousand finishing moves scenario.
Eg.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tGAE99qawps

Now you bag Krav as well. Really, where is the arm being left out? No one thousand finishing moves. In Krav we teach 360 defence which basically has just two scenarios based on the level of the attack. One for high with over hook and one for low with under hook. And we do train that against 100% resistance. How long have you been studying Krav? The fact that the Israelis teach Krav to their troops is obviously by you a waste of time because it isn't always against a totally resisting partner? Interesting to say the least. :hmm:

Then you would put up a video of scenario training so we could critique it wouldn't you.

Because as far as I can see you have 3 choices.

Contact but in a controlled environment. Which is the same as sparring.

No contact but in any environment you want but it is not realistic.

Compliant which is compliant.

I would have thought Hock's training fitted the category of scenario training.

I am bashing other styles by saying my system has as much merit as yours?

If that is going to upset you then you are going to have to get used to being upset.

No one has dissed MMA. It is you dissing many other training systems that is the issue. I would have thought that once you start bashing a few more you might pull some negative reps.

OK to improve your knowledge of mma a bit.

You do not have real knowledge of your skills until you have tested them against a resisting oponant. Padwork and drills and sparring are used to achieve this method. If your training wasn't any good then you need to seek better training in this.

In Melbourne nemisis is one of the top gyms there. And you will also get to train with guys who embrace and exel in both sport and reality training.

http://www.teamnemesis.com.au

Interesting. You posted this as a reply to Kframe who happens to be from the US. I am assuming you meant this comment for me. But don't hold your breath. I won't be at Nemesis anytime soon. If I every wanted to undertake that sort of training my close friend and training partner trains MMA fighters and kickboxers and is actually a licenced fight promoter.

But here is my one example of mma working in the street. So now we are even.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PzCsznE_JE8

Lol! When I was working I did that by myself more times than I can even remember. So I guess we could say that even sport based karate can be effective on the street as well.

Of course only really one way to show merit. And that is sparring. But there are plenty of tma styles that do well. We have a karate guy who routinely comes in and kicks peoples heads off.

Sport based obviously as the only head kicks we do is when the opponent is on the ground.

But ..but.. You have a whole mma section. You even said you welcomed all of these mma guys who were posting valuable information. Ok all that hasn't happened to me but i am sure others have faired better.

You really are confused. It was me who said that I appreciated the posts of the MMA forum members, not Kframe. Must be the heat. I'll look forward to the time you post some valuable information too.

I read somewhere it was also a friendly forum..

It is normally. Just that from time to time someone comes along and rattles our chains.

Why are you so opposed to different methodology? I train with tma guys they train mma. I am trying my best to explain my system and its position on things.

Really? I would suggest here we have all accepted different methodologies except you. You are even against things you have never seen. Go figure!

Let me guess ... your system is MMA. I think that a few of us here have a little understanding of MMA. .

And you come out rage posting and making personal attacks.

Again I think you might be blaming poor old Kframe again for my posts. However I haven't seen any rage posts or personal attacks for a long time. People who do that usually don't last more that a few weeks.

The training you did obviously did not work to your standard. That is fine you should not let a bad school tar your impression of a martial art..

Mmm. That would be Kframe, I never went the MMA route.

As I said go train nemmisis. Their method should be better. And you can even get your boxing and your reality based training on as well..

Right! I do teach RB MAs so I probably don't need to train at Nemesis and as I said earlier, Kframe is unlikely to make the trip to Australia just to experience that fantastic training. As for boxing ... I competed in my last boxing tournament in 1959. I don't see any benefit in me going back to boxing any time soon.

Now with your conflict in the mma gym. This is where you have to let go of your ego and listen to the guys you have actively sought out to train you. You can't just ignore advice from an instructor. This is important for anybody who is learning a new style they don't understand.

Otherwise when you leave that style you will not have understood it.

OK, I'll leave that one for Kframe.

Was it Bruce Lee who said that thing about the cup being empty before it can be filled? I think that is good advice.

Wow! Just how do you see your cup?

OK stand up. One of our coaches got his golden gloves and trained a guy who got his silver. We have a kid who was on the Australian boxing team. Our karate guy came second in a national comp. Another coach is going for a title belt in mma. That seems to be an indication of good stand up.

OK. Back in 1986 my then teacher represented Australia at the World Karate Championships in Sydney. A year or so later his sister, his successor as my teacher came third in the World Championships in Japan. Another of my teachers was the coach. I think I received quite a solid grounding.

Now days I feel privileged to train with some of the top guys around. Later this month I will be training with Masaji Taira and next month with Kevin Secours. I can name drop too if necessary.

So when you post incorrect information about bad stand up.and bad training. You are going to be corrected on it.

Excuse me! And who is going to do the correcting?

You may have experienced bad training I don't know where did you train mma?.

Mmm. That's for Kframe.

I do not like compliant drills. As a sole method of training. I posted that. I also posted compliant drills have their place..

I must have missed that post. I did go looking. I don't know of anyone suggesting compliant drills should be the only form of training. Are you sure that was on MT?

I am not bashing styles I am suggesting methods to get the most out of your training regardless of your style.

Well thank you for the vote of confidence in my training. For a while there I was convinced you were bagging it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

For the second yes. For the first I am presenting a case that combat scenarios will fall into the same unreality traps as sparring as soon as you add resistance or contact.

That whether or not it is more applicable is a debate. That one is real and one is artificial is not.

So I am kind of using two different descriptions to serve different purposes.

I am trying to be reasonable where I can.

The fact is that none of it is "real," and both are limited by the need for training without injury, and both are only as good as the way they are set up. Some sparring rule sets are much more inclusive than other. MMA has a very inclusive rule set. WTF Taekwondo has a very restrictive rule set by comparison, and the competitive rule set rewards things that I might find less than productive in actual self defence in order to make it resemble Taekkyeon and to differentiate it from sport karate.

Scenario training has the same limitations; it's only as good as it is set up to be. The same goes for kata, drills, etc.

 

[Flying Crane]

But every so often we get the 'my way or the highway folks' who can polarise the forum. What should we do? Just ignore them?

on some level, yes you have to. Unless you relish the notion of having a full-time job correcting everyone who says something stupid or inaccurate on the internet, you've got to ignore a lot of it. 'Cause there's a whole lot of it out there and it never stops. Odin knows, there's a whole lot of it goes on here on MT and I just got tired of the endless mindless exchanges.

Keep in mind: just because something stupid or inaccurate does not go corrected or challenged, does not imply agreement. I think we sometimes feel that if we don't correct the record, it somehow means we agree with the statement or we've conceded their point. It doesn't. This is just a discussion forum where we share ideas. Even the stupid and inaccurate stuff, is just someone's idea being shared. It means NOTHING in the real world, to be honest. What gets discussed here doesn't set policy anywhere (Odin-be-thanked, given the lunacy that gets discussed in the Study and the sewer-oops Basement), and you don't need to convince anyone who happens to disagree with you. You don't need to "win" that argument. So on some level, let the ignorant believe what they want. If you feel like educating them, have at it. But if they refuse to be educated, fine, it's their choice and you won't change their minds here. That's just the way it is.

The thread was basically, do you need to spar to be effective in RBSD or street fighting. The answer is, there are many ways to prepare yourself for that scenario. Some systems use sparring and some don't. The ones that don't spar use other types of training to replace the sparring. It depends on the focus of your training but common sense should say that a system that trains solely for the street type situation might be more effective on the street than on designed for competition. But in reality both styles of training on the street against an untrained or poorly trained aggressor should prevail.
:asian:

I'd say they are equally well on the street against a trained aggressor as well.

The thing is, martial arts training is very subjective. A whole lot of it depends on the person and how well he/she relates and connects to the training method. A person needs to find the right training method that "fits" him best, whether it's a more traditional approach or a competitive "mma" type approach, or whatever. Regardless of what one person thinks is the "most appropriate" way to train for a certain kind of situation, it's meaningless to another person if that person just doesn't connect to that kind of training. What matters most is what kind of training a person connects to mentally, what makes sense to him and what he can then use. And he'll use that in whatever situation he finds himself in.

This is all very subjective and cannot be compared in simple black-and-white terms. I've trained in several different systems over the years. It took me that long to finally find the system and the sifu who can give me the quality of instruction that really makes sense to me and I feel like I can use. All the other stuff, I threw it away and don't do it anymore, at all. I found much of it very problematic, at times illogical and even stupid in how it approached training and curriculum structure. By my reckoning, nobody should be training that stuff. But a whole lot of people do, and they love it and find it perfectly logical and useable and feel that it makes a lot of sense and gives them the skills they need and want.

That's kinda what I was getting at earlier: people end up arguing for their favorite method. Well of course they will, that is what their experience tells them. And everyone's experience will tell them something different, even if they experience the same event, or the same training. It depends on the lens through which they view it and that lens is built upon their experiences in training, instruction, and "real-world". And let's be honest: very very very few people are open to being told something different by a stranger. Most of us only accept that information from a very few people who we know and trust or for some reason believe is in a position to give us that information. Coming onto a discussion forum like this and being told by someone else that we are making some monumental mistakes, is not something that any of us are particularly open to hearing. Every one of us reads what someone else is writing and we think, that's crazy, I gotta tell this guy he's wrong! But that same guy is thinking the same thing about what we are saying too.

It comes back to my signature line here, something my dad used to say a lot when I was a kid: De gustibus non disputante est. Concerning Taste, there can be no dispute. That's what is really being argued about: taste. I like peanut butter on peanut butter sandwiches, but I don't like peanut butter cookies or ice cream. Take someone who doesn't like kata or scenario training and tell him, that's that only way he will get the necessary skills, and you've got an argument on your hands and you won't convince him. Take someone who hates competition and tell him that he's got to train like a MMA competitor or he's dead meat, and you've got an argument that you will never win. Honestly, in this thread I'm seeing this kind of argument coming from both sides. Both sides are arguing their perspective, trying to convince a guy who loves chocolate ice cream that he should give it up and eat strawberry ice cream instead. It won't happen.

The discussion can be worthwhile, but eventually it's just arguing the same point over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over in a circle. That's when it's time for everyone to just end the discussion, or ignore the other guy. You've made your point. It's out there in the thread for anyone to read, if they want to.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Good way to put it. Let me see if I can approach the topic from another perspective. I'll use Drop Bear's video as a point of reference. And let me start by saying to DB, I'm not busting on your video. It is as a point of reference to expound my point(s).

Okay, sparring as demonstrated in the video or in general. What are the good points? Well to begin, we have a training tool that allows you to use the basic skills that you have learned. That could include striking, kicking, grappling, locks and/or a combination of those things. So that is a good thing. Next, it allows you to use it against an opponent that is resisting your attempts to control the situation (for whatever the desired result). So that is also a good thing.

So sparring does have a couple of things going for it. Can we all agree on this point?

Now, here are, in my professional opinion, where sparring (as presented in the video and in general) is less than optimal for the purpose of self-defense and other methods are superior (for this specific purpose). To be clear, that should not be taken as a slap in the head for sparring. But if we're to have a frank, open conversation on the topic we need to look at the good as well as the bad (or ugly).

Using the video as a point of reference:

• They are in a controlled environment. Can we all agree that you are not likely to get attacked inside of a school as opposed to other venues? Can we all agree that you and your attacker aren't likely to be wearing safety equipment? Can we all agree that your attacker may not be standing in front of you in a starting position and waiting for you to also get into a starting position? Can we all agree that an attacker may not be abiding by the same rule set that you are using? Can we all agree that the terrain is likely not going to include a dry, level, flat, padded surface (and padded walls) in a well lit venue?
• There is no opportunity or attempt at verbalization i.e. opportunity to de-escalate the situation before it begins. Now not every situation will provide that luxury, but some will. And it needs to be addressed and trained for accordingly. Any fight that can be avoided is a fight that was won. Otherwise no one wins and everyone loses.
• The video demonstrates normal sparring i.e. you stand here and he stands there and you start boxing and dancing and looking for an opening. They go to a point, stop and then reset. This is fine for competition, but is not reflective of how a real fight progresses. There is no reset, break, tap out or time out.
• No opportunity is utilized to escape the situation or place a barrier between you and the attacker.
• No attempt is made to draw attention to the attack as it is happening. Attracting the attention of bystanders or the public in general is good for you and bad for the attacker(s) that don't want to be identified.
• The video demonstrates attempts to go for a submission. While that may be fine to calm down your drunk uncle at the family BBQ because you're trying not to hurt him, attempts to purposefully go the to ground in an actual attack is fool-hardy at best and detrimental to your life at the worst. In a real world altercation you NEED to assume weapons are present and multiple assailants are present until the attack is over. The video does not address either real world consideration at all.
• While the training demonstrated may suffice for an untrained attacker, I honestly don't like your chances against a determined (trained or not) attacker(s) who may be armed and/or under the influence of a drug.
• The video does not address taking the situation to a specific conclusion. This is paramount! As detailed by JKS, under duress you WILL react as you train. As I've said before many times, you will NOT rise to the occasion...you WILL sink to the level of your training. In short, how you train is how you will react under extreme duress. That can be a good or bad thing.
• The video does not address self defense applicable laws and legal uses-of-force. It is only you stand there, I'll stand here and let's start duking it out and then we'll stop, reset and do it again. That isn't real life.

Scenario based training addresses all of the real world concerns detailed above in ADDITION to the things sparring addresses i.e. full contact with and from a resisting attacker. So where sparring has a limited use for SD, scenario based training takes all that sparring offers and takes it up several notches to an entirely different level. Sparring is not the tool to address these other consideration. Thus whereas one needs to spar for competition, one does not need to spar for SD as their are other tools that incorporate what sparring has to offer and adds elements that sparring (as presented in the offered video link and in general) doesn't include.

Pointing out the limitations in a particular form of training can be a useful exercise, but it's missing the point a bit to say "the following elements of this training method are unrealistic, therefore my preferred training method is better." Every single training method in existence has flaws, especially if you are focusing on preparing for violent encounters. "Real-world" violence comes in a myriad of forms and there are serious practical and ethical obstacles to studying how to handle it in a scientific and systematic way. Until we invent Star Trek holodeck technology, there will be no truly "realistic" training.

I'm a big fan of sparring. If done correctly, it can generate benefits that no other training method can. It also has limitations. There are important aspects of real world violence that it does not cover. There are also bad real world habits that you can build up if you treat sparring as your end goal or as a realistic simulation of a self-defense scenario rather than as a tool for developing certain attributes and skills.

I'm a big fan of scenario training. If done correctly, it can generate benefits no other training method can. It also has limitations. There are some very useful attributes and skills that you will not develop using only scenario training.

There are a myriad of other training methods - kata, flow drills, pad hitting, etc. Each can have good benefits if trained correctly. Each can lead to bad habits if trained incorrectly. Each has limitations even if trained perfectly. The key is to figure out what is missing from each training method you use and then find some other complementary training method to fill in the gaps.

BTW - sparring is not just one thing. For what it's worth, I have done sparring outside in the snow, on uneven terrain, using mismatched weapons, using asymmetric rules or objectives for the different partners, using (or not using) various levels of safety gear, fighting multiple opponents, and so on. The boundary between sparring and scenario training can actually be a somewhat fuzzy one at times.

 

[K-man]

The discussion can be worthwhile, but eventually it's just arguing the same point over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over in a circle. That's when it's time for everyone to just end the discussion, or ignore the other guy. You've made your point. It's out there in the thread for anyone to read, if they want to.

Of course you are again 100% correct. I was out of it about 4 or 5 pages back and find my training style bagged yet again. But occasionally, in the middle of an irritating debate, someone will throw in a gem. I can only live in hope!

But I do get a bit confused at times. I would not have thought that someone who claims to have spent four years training with Hock Hochheim would not be bagging the training methodology of Krav Maga that was designed in relatively recent times specifically for the street. I mean, really? Hock, according to his bio, is actually an honorary KM instructor awarded by the United KM World Organisation.

Originally Posted by drop bear
I did hocks system for four years. Up to you as to whether you think that is valid or not.

Looks like I with never make the cut as a martial artist until I switch to MMA.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I think Tony made some valid points about the way people train a few posts ago. Training in all kinds of weather and in all kinds of different environment makes the training a little more real.
Having spared in anything from the sothern Ca. ocean waters to New England mountains when it was 10 below I'll tell you stand up sparring is a good way to train. NOT saying MMA stale is bad but do you want to try to tackle a guy in the surf or 3 foot snow drifts, it has its merits as do all arts but is also limited to what is allowed in the art and what is trained to the point it is instinctual? Now can that sparring be made better, simple set up situations and go over and over and over them till you figure out what works best. Maybe that will be take the guy down and roll down the mountain.
Go against more than one opponent if you really want to learn what street may be about. These days the one and one fight in the street is almost gone. How many of your MMA schools train against more that one opponent at a time heck most TMA school do not for that matter .
And before anyone says I do not have knowledge of these things you can go back over the last 13 years of my posting here if you want to find where I posted about street encounters I have been in over the years.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Drop bear, you keep mentioning that sparring teaches the fundamental basics. Im sorry but you are wrong, and who ever taught you is wrong. You should have ALREADY learned those basics, out side of sparring. Sparring is not the place to learn a technique correctly. It is were you go to learn when to apply it appropriately. That is my issue and part of why i quit MMA. They spend not nearly enough time not sparring and doing the boring #### like pad work and partner drills. Especially the partner drills. I gained more from them then i did in any other thing.

Hence why on sherdog you constantly get threads about the piss poor state of striking in mma. They just don't spend enough time on the basics, out side of sparring. Oh and for proof all i have to do is watch any mma fight in the last 10 years and all i see out side of a few people is craptacular striking and standup.. It is essentially BJJ with some striking for the flavor and a potential payday.

Your nonsense about mma guys constantly dominating on the street is far fetched. I guess someone forgot to tell Miquel Falco and his friend. One of which was a UFC Fighter, the other a Professional boxer. Before you jump in and say it was 5 on 2 let me clue you in. The first exchange, was in a small space, in a door way, with only 2 aggressors making it 2v2. The others were not engaged at that point. Our MMA hero, the man with the single greatest fighting style and training methodology in your opinion violated the number one rule in a mma fight right off the god Darned batt. Which is KEEP YOUR HANDS UP. At no point in that exchange, did he ever assume a fighting stance, or even have his hands up En guard. They were by his sides the whole time, and all of his strikes you see, were all haymakers. Yep that was Dang nice performance by a top teir fighter using the supposed best training methodology. Not to mention his Pro boxer friend whose career is over because of his idiot friend.

Your the type of sherdog poster i cant stand, if it isn't the mma holy trinity, then its crap and needs to die. This attitude of your art sucks and you suck or doing it is ridiculous, especially at a time when martial artists of all flavors need to be coming together in support of each other not fighting each other. Wanna know why?

The state and federal authorities don't have a problem with TMA and its competitions. It does however have a major problem with yours and is constantly trying to ban it. MMA needs to unite with TMA and both stand together to keep a entire style from being banned. Which it is in some places. MMA's continual arrogance and egotistical BS will be its eventually down fall. You guys need to take your chips off your shoulders, and pull you heads out of the sand and unite with other arts instead of constantly bashing them and tearing them down.

Hey Kframe, I get the feeling that you may be carrying some baggage over from your recent switch from MMA to Bujinkan training and whatever feedback you might have been getting from hanging out on the Sherdog forums.

This thread is not about MMA vs TMA and Drop Bear never insulted any TMA or suggested that MMA is the end-all be-all. The discussion has been about the necessity of sparring and most of the participants who are arguing against that necessity in this thread are actually advocating scenario training as the superior alternative. For the record, lots of TMAs use sparring, but scenario training is more of a recent development and is more associated with the RBSD community.

The whole "MMA rules, everything else drools" attitude you are describing is mostly coming from fanboys, wannabees, and internet keyboard warriors. None of the MMA fighters I train with has ever insulted TMAs in my hearing. Many top MMA fighters are TMA practitioners.

If your old gym focused just on sparring at the expense of fundamentals, that's more a reflection on your old instructor than on the state of MMA as a whole. I guarantee you that the top MMA fighters spend plenty of time doing pad work and partner drills.

A large proportion of the keyboard warrior kvetching about the state of striking in MMA comes from ignorance. It's true that most high-level MMA strikers are not going to look like an equivalent high-level boxer. This is for a couple of reasons. First, many of the technical details required for effective punching are going to change considerably once you add in the possibility of grappling, takedowns, elbows, knees, and so on. Secondly, MMA fighters have to study a broader range of techniques than boxers do, so they're not going to be as good as someone who only has to practice one thing. Even so, the state of MMA striking has come a long way. The average level of proficiency among UFC fighters is frankly well above what most non-professional martial artists will ever achieve, even if it doesn't look like you think it should. If you want to understand what is going on better in that domain, I strongly recommend reading Jack Slack's articles for detailed analysis.

The story about Maiquel Falcão isn't particularly relevant to much. You can find examples of MMA practitioners doing poorly in a street fight. You can find examples of TMA practitioners doing poorly in a street fight. You can find examples of RBSD practitioners doing poorly in a street fight. You can find examples of experienced but untrained street fighters doing poorly in a street fight. The best lesson from the incident is that it's a bad idea to get drunk and start street fights no matter who you are.

Your ideas about governments trying to ban MMA are a bit confused. First, the legal bans were never about a style. They were about a type of competition. In fact, at the time lawmakers were crusading against MMA it wasn't a style at all. At that time the competition was promoted as a way to tell which traditional martial art was most effective. The evolution of MMA training into something which might be seen as a style in its own right roughly corresponds with the timing of MMA becoming recognized as a legal, sanctioned, and acceptable form of sporting competition. At this point, MMA is in no particular danger of becoming banned. (This is referring to the U.S., where you and I live. I have no idea how things went in Australia, where Drop Bear is from.)

The best advice I can give you is to relax, don't feel like you have to take sides on things, and don't take stuff personally that's not directed at you. You were a relative beginner at MMA. Now you are a total beginner in the Bujinkan. There are a lot of contradictory ideas out there. Listen to them, file them away for future reference and compare them to your own experiences as time goes on. There's no point in getting upset over any of it.

 

[Flying Crane]

Of course you are again 100% correct. I was out of it about 4 or 5 pages back and find my training style bagged yet again. But occasionally, in the middle of an irritating debate, someone will throw in a gem. I can only live in hope!

i guess once in a while we all get a moment of clarity and that's when our contributions shine.

But I do get a bit confused at times. I would not have thought that someone who claims to have spent four years training with Hock Hochheim would not be bagging the training methodology of Krav Maga that was designed in relatively recent times specifically for the street. I mean, really? Hock, according to his bio, is actually an honorary KM instructor awarded by the United KM World Organisation.

I realize this wasn't directed at me, but I'll make a comment. Everyone sucks, to somebody. Even the famous people. Their methodology just doesn't jive with someone, whatever it is. There's a whole lot of famous people who I have absolutely zero desire to ever train with.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

If we wish to go back to the OP's question, "How bad does not sparring effect you in a real street fight situation"?

The answer is that it doesn't negatively affect you at all with the caveat that you train with a methodology that is a better tool for real world altercations.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If we wish to go back to the OP's question, "How bad does not sparring effect you in a real street fight situation"?

The answer is that it doesn't negatively affect you at all with the caveat that you train with a methodology that is a better tool for real world altercations.

The answer is yes. Because there is no correct answer to this question. The definition of 'sparing' is so broad as to be almost meaningless. Many of the things that are done without "sparring" are considered by some to be sparring. And sparring from one art to the next can be different enough that simply saying "sparring" is no more descriptive than saying kata, which can be done alone or with partners, can be compliant or resistant, etc.

Also, the OP worded the topic so as to generate exactly the kind of bickering going on here.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The answer is yes. Because there is no correct answer to this question. The definition of 'sparing' is so broad as to be almost meaningless. Many of the things that are done without "sparring" are considered by some to be sparring. And sparring from one art to the next can be different enough that simply saying "sparring" is no more descriptive than saying kata, which can be done alone or with partners, can be compliant or resistant, etc.

Also, the OP worded the topic so as to generate exactly the kind of bickering going on here.

I admit that I haven't read every post, so perhaps I've missed heated comments. I didn't realize that it was/or is a heated conversation. Spirited yes, but that's what makes it interesting.

I look at 'sparring' as very similar to the video that Drop Bear posted for review. In general, that is probably a fairly consistent representation of what most consider sparring. It will vary a bit of course. TKD sparring won't have the grappling of MMA but the stand up can be fairly similar (depending on the TKD organization of course). As such, effective training for SD isn't negatively affected by the lack of sparring.