How bad does not sparring effect you in a real street fight situation ?

[Kong Soo Do]

I think the head is the issue.

The head is one target, but not the only target. This brings up several other detrimental issues with sparring. First, regardless of whether it is kick boxing, boxing or MMA the stand up portion is basically boxing i.e. punches to the head. While a punch to the head 'can' be effective, it isn't the only viable target or even the preferred target. Secondly, as per your video, the two guys sparring had on gloves. Why? The answer is to protect their hands. But you don't wear gloves on the 'street'. Now this gets into the whole controversy of open hand strikes vs. closed handed strikes. Some things to consider with this; although sparring with MMA gloves would allow the use of open hand strikes, how often to you actually see it done? Not often if ever. It is basically, as far as the stand up portion, a boxing match. However, in my professional opinion, closed handed strikes in a SD situation is less than optimal. The hand, even with gloves (and the other person wearing head gear) can be broken/cut. This self-inflicted injury can limit further SD options such as manipulating (under duress) keys, tools, weapons, cell phone. Additionally, it can cause a cut on the opponent which brings in the danger of a blood-borne pathogen being introduced into the situation. And this is a MAJOR concern. Other targets, with other body parts can be more effective i.e. elbow/forearm/EOH to the side of the neck/under the armpit etc.

I do advocate conditioning as a drill.

I don't think you have an understanding of the type of conditioning Daniel is speaking of in his post. MMA normally doesn't conduct the hard body conditioning of other types of arts i.e. kicking tires, using bowling pins on the shins, punching/kicking each other in specific areas of the bodies, banging the arms, hand conditioning, breaking boards with the forearm etc. Some go as far as conditioning the neck/throat.

 

[drop bear]

The head is one target, but not the only target. This brings up several other detrimental issues with sparring. First, regardless of whether it is kick boxing, boxing or MMA the stand up portion is basically boxing i.e. punches to the head. While a punch to the head 'can' be effective, it isn't the only viable target or even the preferred target. Secondly, as per your video, the two guys sparring had on gloves. Why? The answer is to protect their hands. But you don't wear gloves on the 'street'. Now this gets into the whole controversy of open hand strikes vs. closed handed strikes. Some things to consider with this; although sparring with MMA gloves would allow the use of open hand strikes, how often to you actually see it done? Not often if ever. It is basically, as far as the stand up portion, a boxing match. However, in my professional opinion, closed handed strikes in a SD situation is less than optimal. The hand, even with gloves (and the other person wearing head gear) can be broken/cut. This self-inflicted injury can limit further SD options such as manipulating (under duress) keys, tools, weapons, cell phone. Additionally, it can cause a cut on the opponent which brings in the danger of a blood-borne pathogen being introduced into the situation. And this is a MAJOR concern. Other targets, with other body parts can be more effective i.e. elbow/forearm/EOH to the side of the neck/under the armpit etc.



I don't think you have an understanding of the type of conditioning Daniel is speaking of in his post. MMA normally doesn't conduct the hard body conditioning of other types of arts i.e. kicking tires, using bowling pins on the shins, punching/kicking each other in specific areas of the bodies, banging the arms, hand conditioning, breaking boards with the forearm etc. Some go as far as conditioning the neck/throat.

Punching is high percentage which is the issue. So you could be giving up strikes that could end a fight to protect your hands. The straight one two combination is increadably hard to counter with other strikes.

You cannot break a cycle of centerline punches easily and you cannot compete if you are trying to throw techniques that go around.

So for example if I am throwing say brachial stuns they take just a bit longer to get there than those straight one twos. If I sit in the pocket trying to trade blows it is likely I will loose.

Elbows new to have negotiated that punching space before they can be deployed.

For beginning fighters this is rule one. Punching straight vs punching around the straight puncher will win. To throw around corners you need superior footwork.

Now there is a risk to hands punching. And there is no reason you can't throw palm heels except I don't think they have as much pep.

I have thrown both.

In a fight that may be very quick you are trying to get three or four shots off at the same time avoiding those three or four shots. So the risk to hands competes with the risk to being overwhelmed.

We train in static conditioning. So I stand there and get wailed on by a guy. Then he stands there and gets wailed on by me.

That progresses to Dutch drills. Which is conditioning with defence.

Then sparring.

Sort of. It is done in different orders. But a round kick check drill is pretty good for conditioning shins.

I have mentioned I train with karate guys who are mad keen for that sort of thing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think the head is the issue. I do advocate conditioning as a drill. But I have never met someone who would think standing there and getting punched in the head would be OK.

Somehow it is better if you are punching back.

I try to develop an "anti-striking" model that to deal with the "head punch".

Hold both of your hands into a big fist.
- Hide your head behind it.
- Extend your arms toward at your opponent's face.
- Run toward your opponent like a mad man and try to use your big fist to hit on his face.
- Let your opponent to try to hit your head.
- You use your big fist along with both of your arms to deflect your opponent's head shots.
- When your hands are close to your opponent's elbow, shoulder, neck, use arm wrap, over hook, under hook, head lock, ... and prevent your opponent from punching you again.

If

- your opponent's punch can hit your head, he wins that round.
- you can use your big fist to hit on your opponent's face, or get him into a clinch (such as arm wrap, under hook, over hook, head lock, ...) before he can hit you, you win that round.

My guys had tried this model for 3 rounds yesterday in the class. The score was:

- 3 clinches to 0 head shot, and
- 2 clinches to 1 head shot.

The only round that the head shot was scored was because one guy used the body shot to set up a head shot. If his opponent just took that body shot and traded with clinch, that round won't even be scored.

My guys will test this strategy in local MMA gym and accumulate the testing result until I have enough data to have more faith in this approach.

 

[drop bear]

I try to develop an "anti-striking" model that to deal with the "head punch".

Hold both of your hands into a big fist.
- Hide your head behind it.
- Extend your arms toward at your opponent's face.
- Run toward your opponent like a mad man and try to use your big fist to hit on his face.
- Let your opponent to try to hit your head.
- You use your big fist along with both of your arms to deflect your opponent's head shots.
- When your hands are close to your opponent's elbow, shoulder, neck, use arm wrap, over hook, under hook, head lock, ... and prevent your opponent from punching you again.

If

- your opponent's punch can hit your head, he wins that round.
- you can use your big fist to hit on your opponent's face, or get him into a clinch (such as arm wrap, under hook, over hook, head lock, ...) before he can hit you, you win that round.

My guys had tried this model for 3 rounds yesterday in the class. The score was:

- 3 clinches to 0 head shot, and
- 2 clinches to 1 head shot.

The only round that the head shot was scored was because one guy used the body shot as a fake to set up a head shot. If his opponent just take that body shot and trade with a clinch, that round won't even be scored.

My guys will test this strategy in local MMA gym and accumulate the testing result until I have enough data to confirm this approach.

John will has a version of that.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-WC8Lh8k-Ic

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think the head is the issue. I do advocate conditioning as a drill. But I have never met someone who would think standing there and getting punched in the head would be OK.

That has little to do with sparring vs. not sparring; not all sparring styles allow for punches to the head/face. But they're still "sparring."

Somehow it is better if you are punching back.

I agree. And that has been addressed regarding non-sparring arts several times in this thread by a number of people.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

John will has a version of that.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-WC8Lh8k-Ic

His approach is similar but there are some differences. His arms are so close to his own head which is no different from a boxing guard. His opponent has plenty of space to generate speed and punching power. His approach is like to guide his castle when his opponent's army is outside of his castle gate. He has to "defend himself in his own territory".

My approach is to use "big fist wedged arms" by extending your arms as far as you can. Since your hands are closer to your opponent's head, you don't give your opponent enough space to generate speed and punching power. My approach is like to send my troop to be outside of my opponent's castle. When my opponent open his gate door and send his soldiers out, my soldiers will attack. You fight "in your opponent's territory".

 

[drop bear]

That has little to do with sparring vs. not sparring; not all sparring styles allow for punches to the head/face. But they're still "sparring."


I agree. And that has been addressed regarding non-sparring arts several times in this thread by a number of people.

Most contact sparring allows strikes to the head though. Kyokashin for example has head contact.

And just another fun example of how sparring transfers to the street.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cr84-Wwq63U

Sometimes a fight does look like a sparring match. Notice by the way that when you control the grappling space you control whether or not you wind up on the ground.

Here is a fight on a train. Less to do with sparring and more to do with environment.

Two things both people are making decisions during this. The idea that in a street fight you become a robot and can only apply your training does not seem apparent.

And it does not appear that anybody is using much more than what would be trained in a flat space.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?debug_pr...has_verified=1&layout=tablet&client=mv-google
Basic fight mechanics are transferable into different environments.

 

[K-man]

Most contact sparring allows strikes to the head though. Kyokashin for example has head contact.

Mmm! No punches or elbows to the head allowed in most Kyokoshin, like in TKD.

In most Kyokushin organisations, hand and elbow strikes to the head or neck are prohibited. However, kicks to the head, knee strikes, punches to the upper body, and kicks to the inner and outer leg are permitted. In some Kyokushin organizations, especially outside of a tournament environment, gloves and shin protectors are worn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyokushin

As to the videos. The first was more street sparring and in the second the marine could have been charged with assault if he did that here.

But back to the OP. Two of the guys in your videos were trained and two were not. Is it a surprise that those who trained were more effective than those who didn't?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Punching is high percentage which is the issue.

Depends on how well you punch.

The straight one two combination is increadably hard to counter with other strikes.

Easy to block and counter, especially if you are standing side on.

You cannot break a cycle of centerline punches easily

Sure you can, move off the centerline, then they're no longer centerline.

So for example if I am throwing say brachial stuns they take just a bit longer to get there than those straight one twos.

It would depend upon your hand position at the time.

In a fight that may be very quick you are trying to get three or four shots off at the same time avoiding those three or four shots. So the risk to hands competes with the risk to being overwhelmed.

Sounds a lot like trading blows, OK for competition, not so much for self defense.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Most contact sparring allows strikes to the head though. Kyokashin for example has head contact.

Kyokushin has the same amount of head contact as TKD; kicks, but no arm/hand strikes to the head. The only substantive difference in that regard is the lack of head protection in kyokushin.

And just another fun example of how sparring transfers to the street.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cr84-Wwq63U

Sometimes a fight does look like a sparring match. Notice by the way that when you control the grappling space you control whether or not you wind up on the ground.

Here is a fight on a train. Less to do with sparring and more to do with environment.

Two things both people are making decisions during this. The idea that in a street fight you become a robot and can only apply your training does not seem apparent.

And it does not appear that anybody is using much more than what would be trained in a flat space.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?debug_pr...has_verified=1&layout=tablet&client=mv-google
Basic fight mechanics are transferable into different environments.

You don't have to sell me on the benefits of sparring. Nor do you have to sell me on being restricted to your sparring style if you are involved in a violent encounter, which I have argued against many times on this forum.

I was specifically responding to your query about how one learns to receive blows without sparring. I have already made my case for sparring mixed with other training methodologies.

 

[MJS]

No head contact in Kyokushin other than from kicks. No punching to the face is allowed. However, most recently, they are bringing that aspect back, into some tournaments. A year ago, my teacher brought one of his Black belts to Japan, to compete in one of those tournaments. He performed well, but lost by decision.

As for the lack of head protection that Dan mentioned...that is true, however, despite the no punching rule, at least in my dojo, we still work drills against strikes to the face, both punches and kicks. Of course, even when sparring, it would be wise to keep your hands up. Never know when your opponent is going to throw a roundhouse kick and connect with your head.

 

[MJS]

Punching is high percentage which is the issue. So you could be giving up strikes that could end a fight to protect your hands.

I agree, it is high percentage, however, it's not the only high percentage thing out there.

The straight one two combination is increadably hard to counter with other strikes.

Interestingly enough, in the Arnis, Kenpo and Kyokushin that I train, we've done defenses against that.

You cannot break a cycle of centerline punches easily and you cannot compete if you are trying to throw techniques that go around.

IMO, if the person trains for such a thing, there is a defense.

Elbows new to have negotiated that punching space before they can be deployed.

I'm sorry...what are you saying here?

We train in static conditioning. So I stand there and get wailed on by a guy. Then he stands there and gets wailed on by me.

That progresses to Dutch drills. Which is conditioning with defence.

Then sparring.

Sort of. It is done in different orders. But a round kick check drill is pretty good for conditioning shins.

I have mentioned I train with karate guys who are mad keen for that sort of thing.

Agreed!

 

[drop bear]

Kyokushin has the same amount of head contact as TKD; kicks, but no arm/hand strikes to the head. The only substantive difference in that regard is the lack of head protection in kyokushin.


You don't have to sell me on the benefits of sparring. Nor do you have to sell me on being restricted to your sparring style if you are involved in a violent encounter, which I have argued against many times on this forum.

I was specifically responding to your query about how one learns to receive blows without sparring. I have already made my case for sparring mixed with other training methodologies.

Yeah I had one thought leading in to another and just posted them together. There are still some ideas about the sparring to fight transition that people have posted that did not make sense. And your post just sort of sparked that point for me.

 

[drop bear]

I agree, it is high percentage, however, it's not the only high percentage thing out there.



Interestingly enough, in the Arnis, Kenpo and Kyokushin that I train, we've done defenses against that.



IMO, if the person trains for such a thing, there is a defense.




I'm sorry...what are you saying here?




Agreed!

OK punching is probably the highest percentage hand attack that can be done not counting some close range ambush stuff like head butts.

Saying you can just negotiate quality straight punches means you haven't faced them. Of course there are defences but the person who is throwing has ways of countering those.

I would suggest go find a decent striker and experience how overwhelming good striking can be.

Elbows.
Elbows are really good but you have to have moved through punching range to throw them. It is no good having that as a super weapon if you have to eat shots before you can use it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As for the lack of head protection that Dan mentioned...that is true, however, despite the no punching rule, at least in my dojo, we still work drills against strikes to the face, both punches and kicks.

This is an example of my comment about sparring in conjunction with other training methodologies.

 

[drop bear]

Mmm! No punches or elbows to the head allowed in most Kyokoshin, like in TKD.



As to the videos. The first was more street sparring and in the second the marine could have been charged with assault if he did that here.

But back to the OP. Two of the guys in your videos were trained and two were not. Is it a surprise that those who trained were more effective than those who didn't?

Kyokashin head contact is not a joke.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a9XzrOe_WkY

Yes it was more like street sparring both fights had the elements of sports fights. And shows sports fighting and its transferability to self defence.

The basic mechanics of fighting being applied.

So no it was no surprise to me.

Oh and that is 4 to 1 I think mma working in self defence vs it not working.

 

[drop bear]

Depends on how well you punch.



Easy to block and counter, especially if you are standing side on.



Sure you can, move off the centerline, then they're no longer centerline.



It would depend upon your hand position at the time.



Sounds a lot like trading blows, OK for competition, not so much for self defense.

Just stand side on you think and there is nothing to worry about?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yeah I had one thought leading in to another and just posted them together. There are still some ideas about the sparring to fight transition that people have posted that did not make sense. And your post just sort of sparked that point for me.

One of the things about sparring that I feel is beneficial is that it can address a multitude of things. Taking and receiving of blows, distance management, resistance, and aliveness among them.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just stand side on you think and there is nothing to worry about?

That's not at all what he said. He said that standing side on facilitates the blocking and countering of the combination you mentioned.

 

[MJS]

OK punching is probably the highest percentage hand attack that can be done not counting some close range ambush stuff like head butts.

I'm not disputing that punching isn't high percentage. I'm saying that there are other things that are equally high.

Saying you can just negotiate quality straight punches means you haven't faced them. Of course there are defences but the person who is throwing has ways of countering those.

Actually, I have faced them. I hate to burst your MMA bubble, but just because I don't train MMA, does not mean that a) I can't strike, b) that I can't defend strikes and c) that I haven't trained with quality strikers. And I'm well aware that everything has a counter, and a counter to the counter, and so forth.

I would suggest go find a decent striker and experience how overwhelming good striking can be.

Been there, done that. See my above comment.

Elbows.
Elbows are really good but you have to have moved through punching range to throw them. It is no good having that as a super weapon if you have to eat shots before you can use it.

You're preaching to the choir. Furthermore, nobody said anything about having to eat shots before getting in.