'Horrific' scene after teen allegedly shoots parents, siblings

[Steve]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...r-teen-allegedly-shoots-parents-siblings?lite

Okay. I haven't seen this story mentioned yet and I'm curious about where this fits into the narrative from either side. Here we have a 15 year old kid. Father is a member of the clergy. Household is Christian. The kids are all home schooled. Looks like he enjoyed the FPS style video games. No medication or history of mental illness or drug addiction... at least, not that anyone knew about.

The kid is "frustrated" with his mother, takes a .22 rifle and kills his mom, then his three siblings. He then takes an AR-15 and waits 5 hours until he can ambush and kill his father.

Could this have been prevented? If so, how? Would a gun safe have worked? I was talking to one of my friends, who owns many, many guns. He said he keeps a shotgun and a pistol in a safe under his bed that has a biometric lock so that it can be opened quickly if needed.

 

[billc]

Where did you get the info. on the killer? I didn't see anything mentioned in the article.

 

[WC_lun]

I saw that same info on CNN and later both Yahoo and Time.

 

[Master Dan]

Ok its been said by profesionals for the last 30 years?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...thleen-Heide-Says-Parents-are-Mostly-to-Blame

Kids aren't the same, girls in puberty as young as 8 I have had boys training 160 to 220 pounds from 6-15 years of age our food and additives with other enviromental changes its the same with the pro gun people saying controls don't work Yeh same as there is no global warming and fosil fuels have no effect. Look at the carnage do something. Take away the guns from people who shoudl not have them fine ever single adult jail time that allows teens access to guns same as drugs and alcohol. But NOOOO the RED coast are comming to enslave you and your family I need my guns and asaulty rifles oh I mean flint lock and musket?

 

[Master Dan]

Where did you get the info. on the killer? I didn't see anything mentioned in the article.

just live interview on CNN from the Sherrif department

 

[Blindside]

Ok its been said by profesionals for the last 30 years?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...thleen-Heide-Says-Parents-are-Mostly-to-Blame

Kids aren't the same, girls in puberty as young as 8 I have had boys training 160 to 220 pounds from 6-15 years of age our food and additives with other enviromental changes its the same with the pro gun people saying controls don't work Yeh same as there is no global warming and fosil fuels have no effect. Look at the carnage do something. Take away the guns from people who shoudl not have them fine ever single adult jail time that allows teens access to guns same as drugs and alcohol. But NOOOO the RED coast are comming to enslave you and your family I need my guns and asaulty rifles oh I mean flint lock and musket?

I think your point would be stronger if it was somewhat intelligible. What does neglected/abused kids (your first sentence) have to do with global warming, fossil fuels, food additives, etc?

 

[ballen0351]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...r-teen-allegedly-shoots-parents-siblings?lite

Okay. I haven't seen this story mentioned yet and I'm curious about where this fits into the narrative from either side. Here we have a 15 year old kid. Father is a member of the clergy. Household is Christian. The kids are all home schooled. Looks like he enjoyed the FPS style video games. No medication or history of mental illness or drug addiction... at least, not that anyone knew about.

The kid is "frustrated" with his mother, takes a .22 rifle and kills his mom, then his three siblings. He then takes an AR-15 and waits 5 hours until he can ambush and kill his father.

Could this have been prevented? If so, how? Would a gun safe have worked? I was talking to one of my friends, who owns many, many guns. He said he keeps a shotgun and a pistol in a safe under his bed that has a biometric lock so that it can be opened quickly if needed.

Safes could have helped or maybe not? How do you make people keep a gun in a safe? I'm not against making it a law but how do we check for compliance? It would be a law that's only enforced after the fact.

 

[granfire]

Safes could have helped or maybe not? How do you make people keep a gun in a safe? I'm not against making it a law but how do we check for compliance? It would be a law that's only enforced after the fact.

well, most laws are enforced after the fact.
However, how do you punish the parents....

 

[ballen0351]

well, most laws are enforced after the fact.
However, how do you punish the parents....

That's kinda my point.

 

[DennisBreene]

Safes could have helped or maybe not? How do you make people keep a gun in a safe? I'm not against making it a law but how do we check for compliance? It would be a law that's only enforced after the fact.

Like you, I'm uncertain that a law requiring that guns be stored in a safe would be effective. I believe there are a number of ordinances requiring trigger locks etc. I would love to see statistices as to the presence of these measures in households where weapons are obtained and used by someone who is not the owner. I wonder if a persistant and forceful public awareness campaign to the effect that leaving your guns around for others to use is unacceptable (how obvious can you get). Maybe you have to be that basic to have an impact.

As morbid as this may sound, I am grateful that the shooter is still alive. It seems that most of these scenarios end up with a dead shooter. The more we can understand about the mindset of the shooter, maybe the more avenues we may discover for intervention.

 

[DennisBreene]

well, most laws are enforced after the fact.
However, how do you punish the parents....

Maybe having a law in effect allows LEO's etc a method to intervene if they become aware of an unsafe situation before the fact. Ie, you become aware that an individual has guns stored in an unsafe way, then you act to remove the danger (several methods come to mind). Clearly this is of no benefit if no one is aware of the situation, but in cases where a dangerous situation does come to light before a tragedy, do LEO's need a new law to enable them to act? Statistically suicide victims have a high probability of having seen a health care individual within a few weeks of their suicide. I can get the exact stats if it is felt necessary but I'm using it as an illustration for the next question. Are there behavioral markers that are known about that relate to those who commit such acts of mass murder?

 

[granfire]

That's kinda my point.

well, in this case....

But when you deal with the 'accident' when the guns were not properly secured, there are usually enough people to slap with a fine or more.

 

[ballen0351]

The biggest obstacle to public service campaign is the "it would never happen to me". I don't think anyone believes there kids will kill them.
I think a better campaign would be warning signs parents should look for for mental health problems. But again I'm not sure how many parents would see the signs they would be in denial "not my kid"

 

[ballen0351]

well, in this case....

But when you deal with the 'accident' when the guns were not properly secured, there are usually enough people to slap with a fine or more.

Yeah but if it was my kid involved in the accident I wouldn't give to craps about a fine I just lost a kid. We already have the trigger lock law here so I wouldn't fight the law but again its just punitive not prevention

 

[DennisBreene]

The biggest obstacle to public service campaign is the "it would never happen to me". I don't think anyone believes there kids will kill them.
I think a better campaign would be warning signs parents should look for for mental health problems. But again I'm not sure how many parents would see the signs they would be in denial "not my kid"

I agree in principle but I think that mental illness rarely erupts out of nowhere. I suspect that frequently there are signs of disturbance. Just as depression questionares for self evaluation can help move someone towards therapy, there may be some benefit from campaigns that focus on identifiable symptoms and behaviors and instructions on how to find help. As a physician, I've seen any number of family members who were worried and even despirate about concerns over a loved one (not necessarily psychiatric). What they often asked for was help in accessing a system that overwhelmed them. I suspect there are many parents or loved ones who simply don't know where to go to get help.

 

[ballen0351]

I agree in principle but I think that mental illness rarely erupts out of nowhere. I suspect that frequently there are signs of disturbance. Just as depression questionares for self evaluation can help move someone towards therapy, there may be some benefit from campaigns that focus on identifiable symptoms and behaviors and instructions on how to find help. As a physician, I've seen any number of family members who were worried and even despirate about concerns over a loved one (not necessarily psychiatric). What they often asked for was help in accessing a system that overwhelmed them. I suspect there are many parents or loved ones who simply don't know where to go to get help.

I guess I've seen too many cases of parents ignoring problems putting there heads in the sand. You may be right I tend to spend my days in the extremes of society so my view my be jaded

 

[arnisador]

Could this have been prevented? If so, how? Would a gun safe have worked?

Sounds like it could have helped. If he couldn't get the first gun freely he wouldn't have been able to shoot the mother. A gun safe would have made this less likely. The kid had started talking to someone at school about this--the delay afforded by secured weapons, even if he was dedicated to this course and kept looking for guns elsewhere, might've been enough to get him help or at least to get the family warning.

 

[arnisador]

Safes could have helped or maybe not? How do you make people keep a gun in a safe? I'm not against making it a law but how do we check for compliance? It would be a law that's only enforced after the fact.

Social pressure has helped with many of these things--making smoking, driving while drinking or texting or w/o a seatbelt, etc., uncool. Law-abiding people would abide by the law. Once again, the shooter in NM was not the gun owner--the gun owners were law-abiding people. The father was a police chaplain. His compliance with the law is a reasonable thing to hope for in this case, if for no other reason than he'd want to set an example, or had police over socially, or the like.

 

[arnisador]

The biggest obstacle to public service campaign is the "it would never happen to me". I don't think anyone believes there kids will kill them.
I think a better campaign would be warning signs parents should look for for mental health problems. But again I'm not sure how many parents would see the signs they would be in denial "not my kid"

All true, but advertisers are very very good at this sort of thing. (Say, trying to get other parents to speak up if they see open guns in your house--social pressure.) I agree they wouldn't think about their own kids, but e.g. the OR mall shooter took a gun from a neighbor's house. Highlighting that danger could help--how about a sombre 30-second spot with the guy whose stolen guns were used in that shooting?

 

[ballen0351]

Social pressure has helped with many of these things--making smoking, driving while drinking or texting or w/o a seatbelt, etc., uncool.

Its a little more then uncool its enforcement. Your in public when DUI or text while driving and the police can see you and ticket you. I can't look in your house and see if you have gun safe or not

Law-abiding people would abide by the law. Once again, the shooter in NM was not the gun owner--the gun owners were law-abiding people. The father was a police chaplain. His compliance with the law is a reasonable thing to hope for in this case, if for no other reason than he'd want to set an example, or had police over socially, or the like.

Perhaps like I said I don't care if there is a gun safe law I can tell you I won't follow it. I have some guns in a safe now but not all of them. I have a few out for quick access. No law will make me change that. It is what it is.