Hong Kong

[geezer]

I'm confused, so what Yip Man taught wasn't for fighting?

Exactly. It was for winning fights!

 

[MattB]

I think you should give HK another go sometime Maybe when you have a for-sure invite arranged for your students). The "immigrant" thing was probably a one-off and the streets are busy, with different "pedestrian" rules/etiquette. I have been there a half dozen times and the place is a great destination with a lot of fun to be had and is generally safe. Great cheap food too!

Me to! I realy liked Hong Kong myself. It is so different from my father's days when it was a pretty dangerous place to live with a lot of crime and political protests ect... still there are places that it is best for westerners to stay out of. And also you have to remember that the Chinese can be very xenocentric and look down on non chinese, but mostly Hong Kongese seem to me to be more tolerant about that. Unless you are shino-Vietnamese or Thai that is. Still I want to go back as soon as I can hopefully for graduate school.

 

[hunt1]

Geezer kinda hard to answer since the opinions vary. First Yip Chun by his own writing admits to not taking wing chun seriously until 1967, Yip Ching started as soon as they moved to HK in 1962.
Moy Yat learned all that he did because he was best friends with Yip Ching. Also several of Yip Mans post 65 students say Yip Ching was Yip Mans helper for their private lessons.
Both sons lived with their father and were taught by him but also learned the basics from others. They learned like everyone else in public classes. The big difference is they were able to ask questions and get straight answers. Something few others were able to do.

Of the two most liked Yip Ching more than Yip Chun. WSL couldn't stand Yip Chun for example. As to their wing chun. They are different but part of that is that yip Chun holds back. Can't say for sure about Yip Ching. Duncan Leung has said he likes Yip Chuns wing chun and thinks Yip Chings is bad but I don't know on what he based his opinion. Overall I always had the feeling that Yip Ching was more respected among his peers in HK than Yip Chun.

 

[KamonGuy2]

The really funny thing is that when my students turned up to train with Ip chun and were turned away, Ip Ching offered to train them but they did not know who he was!! Idiots!

I saw Ip Ching doing the forms and it blew me away

Like I said the Hong Kong guys theory work is exceptional. Great at forms and great at chi sao. A couple of sifus over there (Wan Kam Leung) ar extremely good at the more practical side, and that to me is what wing chun is all about

I know people harp on about how Ip Chun has never had a fight (I dont think that bears too much relevance on martial art technique), but I would have thought he still would have had faith in his art

 

[Laoshi77]

I'm confused, so what Yip Man taught wasn't for fighting?

I didn't say that. However there is no actual eye-witness accounts of Yip Man fighting(?) or am I confused with Yip Chun? The man who tested WC was Wong Shun Leung as a result his WC became a modified form based on what he learned through testing WC in 'Beimo' against other stylists of martial arts be it boxing, Judo, Choy Li Fut etc.

I wouldnt say friendly!! One woman started shouting 'immigant' at me in a supermarket! Most people shoved into me as I was walking down the road.
The only friendly place there was Wan Chai and well...lets not go there...

It is certainly an interesting place though. Very colourful and busy.

Sorry to hear that!
Although I've only been once I did think the people were friendly especially in comparison to mainland China and in particular Beijing.
I remember walking around looking lost several times and local HK people stopped to ask if I needed directions; little things like that make a big impact to me.

 

[geezer]

The really funny thing is that when my students turned up to train with Ip chun and were turned away, Ip Ching offered to train them but they did not know who he was!! Idiots!

I saw Ip Ching doing the forms and it blew me away...

Well then... I'd say your students have nothing to complain about. It sounds like an amazing opportunity was presented and they didn't take full advantage of it.

And for all your dissappointment, Kamon, now at least you've been to Hong Kong and met and trained a bit with these legends. I'm still jealous!!!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I wouldnt say friendly!! One woman started shouting 'immigant' at me in a supermarket! Most people shoved into me as I was walking down the road.

I was called Guilo in a Chinese Bakery in Boston, no big thing.

As for shoving into you, go to any Crowded Chinese Market in the US and you will get the same thing they will not only be shoving into you but each other as well and I ran into this same thing in crowded places in Beijing and on Buses too.

I do not know exactly what your experience was but from my pov it was pretty much a cultural difference. The idea of personal space in China is VERY different from what it is here in the US.

 

[KamonGuy2]

I was called Guilo in a Chinese Bakery in Boston, no big thing.

As for shoving into you, go to any Crowded Chinese Market in the US and you will get the same thing they will not only be shoving into you but each other as well and I ran into this same thing in crowded places in Beijing and on Buses too.

I do not know exactly what your experience was but from my pov it was pretty much a cultural difference. The idea of personal space in China is VERY different from what it is here in the US.

Yeah except I dont live in the US....

I go to Chinatown in London quite a lot and most people are fairly friendly

Hong Kong was extremely different - people were bouncing off me down the street and said nothing. When I held a door open for people I got around 50 Chinese guys walking through without any acknowledgment

Rude is rude. I know all about cultural differences (London is extremely multi-ethnic), and whilst rudeness can vary from culture to culture, bumping into someone in the street is a rude gesture

Being called Guilo is not a big thing. Just like being called a honky etc. Being shouted at in the middle of a busy supermarket, for doing nothing other than shopping, is

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yeah except I dont live in the US....

I go to Chinatown in London quite a lot and most people are fairly friendly

Hong Kong was extremely different - people were bouncing off me down the street and said nothing. When I held a door open for people I got around 50 Chinese guys walking through without any acknowledgment

Rude is rude. I know all about cultural differences (London is extremely multi-ethnic), and whilst rudeness can vary from culture to culture, bumping into someone in the street is a rude gesture

Being called Guilo is not a big thing. Just like being called a honky etc. Being shouted at in the middle of a busy supermarket, for doing nothing other than shopping, is

Sorry you had such a bad time

Chinatowns in the US are fairly friendly as well but go into a crowded market and you will get bumped into just as much as the Chinese people that are shopping there.

And for the record I was also called a Geijin (rather loudly) in the middle of a bookstore in Beijing for no apparent reason what-so-everm which surprised me since it was a foreign Bookstore full of other people from other countries. But then I found that one rather humorous since I was in Beijing being insulted by a Japanese person who was likely less liked than I was in China. I was stared at, pointed out, bumped into and from time to time followed in Beijing since I was an obvious foreigner in areas foreigners don't go. I had even had some CMA People stop training when I approached, but all in all I had a good time (once I figured out how to get people to stop staring at me that is) and will go back…

But then that is the North and things can be considerably different in the South.

But we must face the fact that in reality we ARE foreigners in China

 

[wkmark]

The really funny thing is that when my students turned up to train with Ip chun and were turned away, Ip Ching offered to train them but they did not know who he was!! Idiots!

I saw Ip Ching doing the forms and it blew me away

Like I said the Hong Kong guys theory work is exceptional. Great at forms and great at chi sao. A couple of sifus over there (Wan Kam Leung) ar extremely good at the more practical side, and that to me is what wing chun is all about

I know people harp on about how Ip Chun has never had a fight (I dont think that bears too much relevance on martial art technique), but I would have thought he still would have had faith in his art

Feel free to drop me a PM the next time you are in Hong Kong. We'd be more than happy to exchange Wing Chun ideas with your school. Btw, we train under the WSL method.

 

[David Peterson]

Master Wong's WC was a little different though in the sense that it was modified for fighting.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with that statement - my Sifu, Wong Shun Leung, didn't "modify" the Wing Chun he learnt from Ip Man, ...he APPLIED IT!!! ...and in doing so, found better ways of both training and developing what was already (and STILL IS!!!) a brilliant combat system. The difference is the hard work and the constant effort that he put into his training, not to mention the science and logic that he applied to it at all times.

As a side point, my late Sifu had a lot of time for Ip Ching and considered him a good friend. As another poster has already mentioned, he couldn't stand Ip Chun (and based on the way in which Ip Chun behaved after my Sifu's passing, I'm not surprised!!!), and as far as the man's training is concerned, while his father was teaching Wing Chun and his Si-hing-dai (including his brother) practised their skills, it is commonly known that Ip Chun sat at the back of the classroom strumming his guitar and singing.

You work out the rest...

PS: it also comes as no surprise that the original poster was made to feel so very welcome by Sifu Wan Kam Leung. My esteemed and very skilfull Sihing, like my late teacher and all WSLVT devotees, is a friendly, open-minded and generous practitioner who is always keen to share the knowledge and experience that he has accumulated over the years. In the WSLVT lineage, we have been taught to have a passion for knowledge and as such, always welcome an opportunity to exchange knowledge, test our skills, and improve our ability. If my teacher had 5 guys in the room or 50, he'd still welcome you to come inside - did anyone mention good manners and a lack of ego???

 

[hunt1]

Dave a couple of WSL questions. After Yip Bo Ching died WSL became the knife man and Yip Man taught him the 12 section form . Choreography bit different than YBC but sections the same. Did WSL ever teach this form to Yip Ching?

I have seen WSL teach 2 different dummy forms. The older one and the one Yip Man did on his final 8mm film. Did he have any preference or see any real difference in the forms as far the the practical information they contained?

 

[David Peterson]

Dave a couple of WSL questions. After Yip Bo Ching died WSL became the knife man and Yip Man taught him the 12 section form . Choreography bit different than YBC but sections the same. Did WSL ever teach this form to Yip Ching?

I have seen WSL teach 2 different dummy forms. The older one and the one Yip Man did on his final 8mm film. Did he have any preference or see any real difference in the forms as far the the practical information they contained?

Not sure where you get your numbers from, Hunt1, but there certainly aren't 12 sections in my Sifu's knife form - depending on how you want to count it, maybe 9 or 10. To the best of my knowledge, Sifu did NOT teach the form to anyone other than his own students, so I cannot substantiate any claim that he taught Ip Ching - from what I have seen of Ip Ching's form, they are VERY different from each other.

Sifu was constantly reviewing and refining his 'Muk Yan Jong' form, but I never saw him demonstrate or teach the form in the way that Ip Man originally did it (although on occasions he did describe the differences and show some of the ideas involved ), and even the "version" of the form that he was demonstrating just before his death (the so-called "normalised" form) is still at least slightly different from even the footage of Ip Man playing the 'Jong' shortly prior to his death.
DMP

 

[hunt1]

Thanks for replying Dave,.
I have tapes of WSL doing both dummy forms never met him so just curious about his doing the different forms. Same for the knives. Yes Yip Ching form is different. Just wondered if WSL had also taught him the longer knife form since you said he got on with Yip Ching.