Holocaust: victim numbers could be up to 20 million.

[Tez3]

I do like the way you go to the horses mouth to find out what the Fabian Society is.

http://www.fabians.org.uk/about/

The Fabian Society is Britain’s oldest political think tank. Founded in 1884, the Society is at the forefront of developing political ideas and public policy on the left.

What we stand for

We aim to promote:

• greater equality of power, wealth and opportunity
• the value of collective action and public service
• an accountable, tolerant and active democracy
• citizenship, liberty and human rights
• sustainable development
• multilateral international cooperation

Do you think everyone is stuck in the Dark Ages, that things don't change, that people and societies don't change their views on things? I bet you think we still have London fogs and all say 'gor blimey gov'.

I'm shaking my head at the things you think about the UK, you are so out of date. Eugenics was a popular subject back in the 19th century, it certainly isn't now. Political though changes with the times, people learn from history. You seem stuck on definitions and of believing evreything you read, you also have a penchant for conspiracy theories. Anyone can join the Fabian Society, I like it because it opposes Cameron and his ilk, look up the history of the Tory Party and see what they've done and believed in the past. In fact look up all of the UKs history as well as your own and see how many people believed in eugenics. Don't take things in isolation but take them in the times they were set.

 

[billc]

For the record...again...I never called Margaret Thatcher a socialist...it is just one more thing that tez is wrong about. I have posted the thread where she misread the Thatcher quote that I posted, thanking Thatcher for the quote...and she took from that that I thought Thatcher was a socialist....tez...still wrong about that...still wrong about the national socialsits...

 

[Tez3]

Bill who called the Brits and Europeans baby killers. Not in abortions but that we killed premature babies rather than look after then. For the record my premmie baby died despite marvellous care and the wishes of everyone that he lived. And that's why Bill is on ignore, so what ever he's libelling with me now I don't have to read it or care.

 

[billc]

For the record, I did not call Europeans and Brits baby killers, but the article I pointed to showed that premature babies were not recieviing the best care and sometimes not given care because they were determined not to be in a "optimum," place for life saving measures in the NHS...which is no surprise.

Why is it that here on the study, where people go to discuss political topics, one side is always bringing out personal tragedies to attack and silence the other side on topics they apparently don't want discussed. We all feel horribly for the losses that people suffer as they go through life, and they always have our sympathies...but please...don't use them to attack other people, or to silence their thoughts or opinions on topics. I have suffered through my own tragedies and experienced the sufferings of my own family but I will not put them out here to attack or silence anyone. This is one place to go to discuss the issues, not to be silenced by using the suffering of family members.

As it turns out, the NHS has a protocol for end of life treatment of adults...that is they deny them food and water when they don't think there is any chance of curing the patient, and it turns out many times they didn't consult with the patients families before this was implemented. This protocol was meant for adults...but typical of any government run system it metasticized and they began to use it on children...on many occasions without consulting the parents. This has become a problem and I believe it has reached a level of an official investigation over in Britain...sooooo, about that wonderful care in the NHS...

It doesn't take much time to find an article on the topic...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2249383/The-tiny-premature-baby-lived-doctors-recorded-weight-incorrectly-battled-alive.html

Any baby that survives a premature birth is considered by their parents to be a miracle. But for Kate and Renato Douse, their daughter is extra special.

For little Maddalena is one of the smallest premature babies ever to survive in the UK - and it's all thanks to a pair of scissors.
Born at just 23 weeks, doctors were unsure whether she would survive, or whether they should try and save her.

Current ethical guidelines in the UK on the care of very premature infants do not suggest providing active care for babies born at 22 weeks six days and earlier.


More...


But when they put her on the scales she weighed 1lb, the minimum weight for a baby to be considered viable, so they fought to keep her alive.

It was only when she was safely on a ventilator that doctors discovered a pair of scissors had been accidentally left on the scales and that Maddalena actually only weighed 382g.

Now six months old, she has been discharged from the Royal Sussex Hospital and is expected to grow into a healthy child.

Very premature babies born around 24 weeks go to neonatal intensive care units, although their parents often opt for withdrawal of care at some point when the medical outlook for the child worsens.
Babies born before this time struggle because their lungs and other vital organs are not developed enough.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...-incorrectly-battled-alive.html#ixzz2Mt6h1Rex
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[celtic_crippler]

Let's get this back on track.

Here's a challenge:

Present me with a tidbit of factual history as an example, or even a position rooted in logic and reason, to support a position of the disarming of the Jews by the Germans having no impact what-so-ever on the outcome of the number of Jews murdered.

...go!

 

[granfire]

Let's get this back on track.

Here's a challenge:

Present me with a tidbit of factual history as an example, or even a position rooted in logic and reason, to support a position of the disarming of the Jews by the Germans having no impact what-so-ever on the outcome of the number of Jews murdered.

...go!

Really?

You have no concept of how German society operates

How it did operate. Past and present.

it is not the Wild West the US is, and do open your eyes an do loo around: Here we see all kinds of singling out segments of the population to have rights infringed upon. Short of owning a F16, there is not a thing they can do about it should the mob be turned lose.

Germany was a civilized nation. Things like that just did not happen.
You did not use guns.

What happened in Germany was the prime example of what happens when you force people into democracy who are not ready or willing to take that step (important point these days...), what happens when the checks and balances break. A thing to keep in mind when you cheer on the next asinine 'us vs them' spiels in DC.
When you crush and humiliate a nation, leave it in poverty and despair.

it is what happens when people fall for sound bites and don't THINK for themselves anymore.

Guns?
Guns had no part in social life.
gentlemen hunted with them, did target shooting....Anarchists threw bombs...

and yeah, the hunting rifle with a handful of bullets really stops a tank....or that double barrel shotgun....

If you think having guns would have saved a Jew...All I can say, April is Script Frenzy, November is Novel writing month....write the alternative ending! But it won't be grounded in anything reality could have provided!

 

[Big Don]

and yeah, the hunting rifle with a handful of bullets really stops a tank....or that double barrel shotgun....

A single shot makes the next man in the column think twice...
Ridiculously condescending much?

 

[granfire]

A single shot makes the next man in the column think twice...
Ridiculously condescending much?

Not as bad as you.

To you it is an exercise in hypotheticals.

It is the history of my country, and yes, part of my family.

Somebody has the Hollywood notion that a gun is the cure all.
They did not save the Alamo people....

There is another thing that a single gunshot does: It can make the mob even angrier.

On November 9th 1938 a bunch of law abiding citizens woke up to mobs pulling them from their houses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

At one point your bullets run out, then what?

I am sorry, but I am on Tez's side on this one.

More power to you if you believe in the myth of the gun.
reality is much different from a Chuck Norris movie!

 

[celtic_crippler]

Really?

You have no concept of how German society operates

How it did operate. Past and present.

it is not the Wild West the US is, and do open your eyes an do loo around: Here we see all kinds of singling out segments of the population to have rights infringed upon. Short of owning a F16, there is not a thing they can do about it should the mob be turned lose.

Germany was a civilized nation. Things like that just did not happen.
You did not use guns.

What happened in Germany was the prime example of what happens when you force people into democracy who are not ready or willing to take that step (important point these days...), what happens when the checks and balances break. A thing to keep in mind when you cheer on the next asinine 'us vs them' spiels in DC.
When you crush and humiliate a nation, leave it in poverty and despair.

it is what happens when people fall for sound bites and don't THINK for themselves anymore.

Guns?
Guns had no part in social life.
gentlemen hunted with them, did target shooting....Anarchists threw bombs...

and yeah, the hunting rifle with a handful of bullets really stops a tank....or that double barrel shotgun....

If you think having guns would have saved a Jew...All I can say, April is Script Frenzy, November is Novel writing month....write the alternative ending! But it won't be grounded in anything reality could have provided!

That's what is commonly known as an EPIC FAIL

You cited no historical evidence to support your position and instead of attempting to entertain the use of reason or apply logic to your stance, you resort to insults and an attempt to be witty. Key word there, is "attempt".

This pathetic attempt to validate your stance only reveals your frustration when confronted with logic, reason, and factual evidence. You could avoid the feeling of inadequacy by simply embracing the idea that you could be wrong. In truth, entertaining a thought or idea that you do not agree with is a reflection of intelligence and often leads to greater understanding. This effort does not require acceptance, but it does require an open mind. Which you seem to lack, but that can be overcome in time.

Your constant, unproven assumptions on everything from people you don't know to the subject of history are often amusing, yet frightening as well. Frightening because I know others suffer from the same narrow minded ignorance; however, the silver lining there is that ignorance can be overcome through education.

And, for your information, historic fact aside, I have family that was involved in WWII on both sides and have my own experience with "word of mouth." So, in the future, you may want to consider your words more carefully lest you make yourself out a fool.

Unfortunately, I feel all this advice is likely in vain and will probably be ignored just as you continue to ignore fact, logic, and reason. Though, if you somehow prove me wrong one day, that would be awesome!

 

[granfire]

That's what is commonly known as an EPIC FAIL

You cited no historical evidence to support your position and instead of attempting to entertain the use of reason or apply logic to your stance, you resort to insults and an attempt to be witty. Key word there, is "attempt".

This pathetic attempt to validate your stance only reveals your frustration when confronted with logic, reason, and factual evidence. You could avoid the feeling of inadequacy by simply embracing the idea that you could be wrong. In truth, entertaining a thought or idea that you do not agree with is a reflection of intelligence and often leads to greater understanding. This effort does not require acceptance, but it does require an open mind. Which you seem to lack, but that can be overcome in time.

Your constant, unproven assumptions on everything from people you don't know to the subject of history are often amusing, yet frightening as well. Frightening because I know others suffer from the same narrow minded ignorance; however, the silver lining there is that ignorance can be overcome through education.

And, for your information, historic fact aside, I have family that was involved in WWII on both sides and have my own experience with "word of mouth." So, in the future, you may want to consider your words more carefully lest you make yourself out a fool.

Unfortunately, I feel all this advice is likely in vain and will probably be ignored just as you continue to ignore fact, logic, and reason. Though, if you somehow prove me wrong one day, that would be awesome!

Ok then:

when was the last time you were German?

I am sorry that you do not concur with my POV.

but you should have the courtesy of being polite!

To make this clear: I won't scan my passport for you just so you can see or ignore when I tell you that 'gun' is an alien concept in Germany. Maybe you should spend some time there....get to know the people.

But they would probably not tell you a thing because you are rather condescending in the attempt to prove your point which resides somewhere in the realm of Hollywood fantasy.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Ok then:

when was the last time you were German?

I am sorry that you do not concur with my POV.

but you should have the courtesy of being polite!

To make this clear: I won't scan my passport for you just so you can see or ignore when I tell you that 'gun' is an alien concept in Germany. Maybe you should spend some time there....get to know the people.

But they would probably not tell you a thing because you are rather condescending in the attempt to prove your point which resides somewhere in the realm of Hollywood fantasy.

Again, you assert much with no proof or even the tiniest smidgeon of logic or reason. How do you know so much about me and my experiences? You don't, and that's the point. Instead of speaking out of the south end of your anatomy again, I suggest you put more consideration into what you write before posting. Unless you find your foot quite tasty, in that case please continue.

And how was I rude? Oh, but I often forget that in today's culture the "truth" is considered offensive. I suppose for many, fantasy is preferable to reality as evidenced by the massive amounts of denial I routinely witness on this board.

You know, the way to get "under my skin" isn't to continuously prove my observations correct. Right?

This isn't directed at you specifically, but true stupidity does get to me because you can't "fix stupid". But as I stated previously, there is hope for the ignorant because education can improve upon that condition.

Again, I make the challenge: Present some historical fact or at the very least present a logical and reasonable argument for your position and I assure you I will entertain it. Until then… BACON!

 

[Big Don]

A Law Review article about Nazi Germany and Jews with guns.
A relative few Jews with a relative few weapons held off the might of the Nazi military in Warsaw, not once, but, twice, in 1943 and 1944. Enough so that Himmler stated:

"This is the fiercest of our battles since the start of the war. It compares to the street battles of Stalingrad."

– SS chief Heinrich Himmler to German generals on 21 September 1944

 

[celtic_crippler]

More on the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (this would be an example of “historical/factual evidence” that some people use to support a position.):

Article: http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007745

In the summer of 1942, about 300,000 Jews were deported from Warsaw to Treblinka. When reports of mass murder in the killing center leaked back to the Warsaw ghetto, a surviving group of mostly young people formed an organization called the Z.O.B. (for the Polish name, Zydowska Organizacja Bojowa, which means Jewish Fighting Organization). The Z.O.B., led by 23-year-old Mordecai Anielewicz, issued a proclamation calling for the Jewish people to resist going to the railroad cars. In January 1943, Warsaw ghetto fighters fired upon German troops as they tried to round up another group of ghetto inhabitants for deportation. Fighters used a small supply of weapons that had been smuggled into the ghetto. After a few days, the troops retreated. This small victory inspired the ghetto fighters to prepare for future resistance.

What?!?! Those law-breaking Jews used illegal weapons! How dare they!?

On April 19, 1943, the Warsaw ghetto uprising began after German troops and police entered the ghetto to deport its surviving inhabitants. Seven hundred and fifty fighters fought the heavily armed and well-trained Germans. The ghetto fighters were able to hold out for nearly a month, but on May 16, 1943, the revolt ended. The Germans had slowly crushed the resistance. Of the more than 56,000 Jews captured, about 7,000 were shot, and the remainder was deported to camps.

An admirable stand, but it was too little too late.

Do you see the real purpose behind the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Amendment now? It is intended to keep things like this from happening again and again throughout history. When the people have the same “guns” the government has, it levels the playing filed considerably.

"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

 

[Drasken]

I don't think guns would have solved all the problems Jews faced during this dark period. However they could have helped.

Never underestimate the resistance of a small group of people with the determination to resist. After all, if it were so easy to put down small groups of determined people with any kind of weapons, well there would be no insurgents left in Afghanistan.

I don't think guns solve all problems, but it would have given Jews ( some of them being my own family ) a fighting chance. Though also note that if the Nazis could have attributed their attacks on Jews to putting down a dangerous minority and had evidence of their resistance while manipulating the facts... Well we might not have been so inclined to try and help. So it could, in fact, have easily made things just as bad in a different way.