Hitting The Vital Targets

[MJS]

Usually, whenever the subject of eye shots or things of that nature come up, you will have one group that says that its nearly impossible to hit these 'deadly' targets, especially when someone is moving.

Now, if you look at the Kenpo techniques, pretty much every one has some sort of eye shot, groin hit, break, etc.

So, in your opinion, is it really that hard to hit these targets? Now, for myself, I've never really looked at any shot as a fight stopper. Instead, I view each shot as one that sets the next one up. If I'm lucky and it happens to drop the guy, then great. But, at the least, it'll get my opponent to react, and create an opening for my next hit. In other words...even if that eye shot doesnt land, the flinch response is natural, so 9 times out of 10, the person will blink, flinch back, bring their hands up, and that allows me enough time to set something else up.

Of course, training each technique in somewhat of an alive fashion, it'll train you to be able to apply various things against someone whos moving, not standing still.

Your thoughts?

Mike

 

[fnorfurfoot]

How many times have students been accidentally hit in the groin or eyes or sprained a joint? I don't believe that it would be all that difficult to hit in a real fight. I agree that these moves should not be considered a show stopper. I look at them as a bonus. They aid in slowing down the attacker and setting him up for the next move. But if they don't land as they should, you should still be in a position to take him down.

 

[MJS]

How many times have students been accidentally hit in the groin or eyes or sprained a joint? I don't believe that it would be all that difficult to hit in a real fight. I agree that these moves should not be considered a show stopper. I look at them as a bonus. They aid in slowing down the attacker and setting him up for the next move. But if they don't land as they should, you should still be in a position to take him down.

Great post! Another analogy I like to use, for what its worth , is if we can hit someone in the face with a punch, simply extending the fingers shouldn't be that hard. And like any move that doesn't work during the execution of the technique, well, thats where the extensions and what ifs come into play.

 

[ackks10]

Usually, whenever the subject of eye shots or things of that nature come up, you will have one group that says that its nearly impossible to hit these 'deadly' targets, especially when someone is moving.

Now, if you look at the Kenpo techniques, pretty much every one has some sort of eye shot, groin hit, break, etc.

So, in your opinion, is it really that hard to hit these targets? Now, for myself, I've never really looked at any shot as a fight stopper. Instead, I view each shot as one that sets the next one up. If I'm lucky and it happens to drop the guy, then great. But, at the least, it'll get my opponent to react, and create an opening for my next hit. In other words...even if that eye shot doesnt land, the flinch response is natural, so 9 times out of 10, the person will blink, flinch back, bring their hands up, and that allows me enough time to set something else up.

Of course, training each technique in somewhat of an alive fashion, it'll train you to be able to apply various things against someone whos moving, not standing still.

Your thoughts?

Mike

hey Mike no disrespect to anyone here but, if they say that, then they never had to do anything like that on the street,(only in the dojo), i have and without going into the whole story i will tell you that i have used a finger poke alot of times and u know what??? it works, so i really don't care what other people say about it, so i would like to say this to the people who might say something about this, (no disrespect) "if you never had to use it don't talk about it"

 

[ackks10]

Great post! Another analogy I like to use, for what its worth , is if we can hit someone in the face with a punch, simply extending the fingers shouldn't be that hard. And like any move that doesn't work during the execution of the technique, well, thats where the extensions and what ifs come into play.

what comes to mind here is "5 swords" when you use that palm, u can use the fingers also 3rd movement in "5 swords":uhyeah:

 

[MJS]

what comes to mind here is "5 swords" when you use that palm, u can use the fingers also 3rd movement in "5 swords":uhyeah:

Yes, this is a perfect example! Actually, when I was taught this tech. I was taught with the finger thrust instead of the palm.

 

[Jdokan]

I believe it is easier to make contact with these points than one might think....In last nights class while doing some training blade sparring..through a mishap one of the guys had his right eye briefly hit and his reaction was immediate recoil...Hand to the eye, all thought of attacking eroded....tunred out he was ok but the ability to watch first hand the actual reaction was priceless....

 

[Twin Fist]

the groin is easy to hit. NO ONE ever expects hand techniques to go there. Even in sparring, i would fake a backfist high then drop down and groin punch, it lands every time.


eyes are harder, but the trick is you dont aim for the eyes first. Palm to the jaw, or face first, then the eyes are right there......

 

[MattJ]

Mike -

Vital point strikes are good ones to have in the toolbox. I have no problem with the thought of using them, or training them (as it were).

They are strikes like anything else - no more or less reliable than a good hook to the temple or whatever. The danger is when these strikes are imbued with magical, instantaneous attacker-dropping power. Over confidence in them will lead to problems, just like if someone assumes that EVERY punch/elbow/kick to the head will KO their opponent.

JMO.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

It helps if before you attempt a more difficult target, if you first anchor them in some way( as schoolboy-simple as holding and hitting, or as complex as "kicking" your shin into theirs, hooking their ankle, trapping their knee, and checking their outside arm/shoulder so as to lock up their whole rotational axis/half their upper body tools, and so on) BEFORE attempting the strike.

Not for no reason does the old boxing adage go "Don't get caught flat footed": not only because if up on your feet you can move, but also move and rotate so as to dodge/shed punches you didn't dodge.

But they can't bleed off any impact force if you anchor them first.

 

[Doc]

Usually, whenever the subject of eye shots or things of that nature come up, you will have one group that says that its nearly impossible to hit these 'deadly' targets, especially when someone is moving.

Now, if you look at the Kenpo techniques, pretty much every one has some sort of eye shot, groin hit, break, etc.

So, in your opinion, is it really that hard to hit these targets? Now, for myself, I've never really looked at any shot as a fight stopper. Instead, I view each shot as one that sets the next one up. If I'm lucky and it happens to drop the guy, then great. But, at the least, it'll get my opponent to react, and create an opening for my next hit. In other words...even if that eye shot doesnt land, the flinch response is natural, so 9 times out of 10, the person will blink, flinch back, bring their hands up, and that allows me enough time to set something else up.

Of course, training each technique in somewhat of an alive fashion, it'll train you to be able to apply various things against someone whos moving, not standing still.

Your thoughts?

Mike

No, it isn't difficult. Although I don't advocate such things as "eyeball" attacks except for the most extreme circumstances, it is fairly easy in practice. Most have the hand eye coordination to do that without significant training, and resorting to them usually indicates the inability to utilize more sophisticated skills of defense.

Many whose training advocates and focus consists primarily of such counter-assaults to soft tissue, would like to elevate the difficulty of these actions because that is the bulk of what their skills are. Therefore if it is easy, and almost anyone can do it, than de-facto they don't have "special skill" to justify the rank and titles.

Because the concept of "fighting" is skewed toward a "competition mindset," usually when these discussions begin, there is a tendency to approach the topic from a "sparring" perspective whether it be sport or street. That is a different matter when the goal is to initiate a first strike to any target.

However, from a self-defense perspective where usually the attacker initiates the confrontation, the task is relatively easy under obvious conditions. Statistically, the bulk of initiated assaults against male and females persons begin with something other than a punch or kick, even with the attack is not cross gender.

Therefore the initiated strikes of competition, and even street assaults are in a considerable minority. The women's self-defense classes initiated by Mr. Parker (and others) back in the late sixties and early seventies, and taught in workshops across the country in colleges and universities, got it right. Unfortunately, these workshops have become the basis for arts where rank may be achieved for relatively little skill.

However, don't confuse "vital targets" with "vital points." Attacking nerve points and cavities is a different discussion from soft tissue assaults in general.

Someone grabs you by the wrist, stick your fingers in his eyes or smash him in the testicles. Now, one stripe or two?

 

[Hand Sword]

For me, I never had a problem hitting those areas, or even had the notion that it might be difficult, until reading posts in these parts. I can see how some might think about problems, say, due to movement. However, I feel that, in that scenario, different range and tactics. For use of what we're talking about, the gap is closed, and the opponent has extended/opened themselves to their use.

 

[Doc]

For me, I never had a problem hitting those areas, or even had the notion that it might be difficult, until reading posts in these parts. I can see how some might think about problems, say, due to movement. However, I feel that, in that scenario, different range and tactics. For use of what we're talking about, the gap is closed, and the opponent has extended/opened themselves to their use.

Exactly sir.

 

[thetruth]

No, it isn't difficult. Although I don't advocate such things as "eyeball" attacks except for the most extreme circumstances, it is fairly easy in practice. Most have the hand eye coordination to do that without significant training, and resorting to them usually indicates the inability to utilize more sophisticated skills of defense.

I agree with Doc and due to the fact that these techniques don't require a great deal of skill they are perfect for womens self defense courses and the like. One thing that must be taken into consideration though when using finger strikes to the facial area is to have them slightly bent so that if you miss a soft target and hit a hard area then you don't strain or even break your fingers.
Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Doc]

I agree with Doc and due to the fact that these techniques don't require a great deal of skill they are perfect for womens self defense courses and the like. One thing that must be taken into consideration though when using finger strikes to the facial area is to have them slightly bent so that if you miss a soft target and hit a hard area then you don't strain or even break your fingers.
Cheers
Sam:asian:

Agreed, however let's not forget the "whips."

 

[LawDog]

* If you execute a strike towards a soft area, like an eye, his level of force should be in the area of lethal or serious bodily harm against you,
* Excellant focus and timing are needed to hit a small soft target area. If you take to much time focusing on a soft target you may not see what he is prepairing to do,
* Normally he / she will not be a static target, they will be moving in - out, left to right and even changing height,
* They will be striking back or attempting to take you to the ground. Much of your techniques will be done using your basic raw defensive techniques,
* One sould practice striking against a moving target. One should use equipment like the, double ended ball, speed bag, moving focus hand pads etc. etc..
I agree with Doc in that this can be done easily but only if you train properly so that you have the ability to hit a small moving soft target.
:jediduel:

 

[thetruth]

Agreed, however let's not forget the "whips."

Of course!!

:asian: