Healthy Training (rant)

[Andrew Green]

Sounds more like PR grand-standing to me

It is, and it always had been.

The fight would never happen, no top boxer would bother. If they win the prize is too small, if they loose they may steer fans from boxing to MMA. Loose - Loose for them.

If it where to happen I would imagine Gracie would win, and I would place my money on him. Unless the Boxer trained for it. Stick Tyson with a wrestling coach and a BJJ coach for a year and I'd change my bet. But someone with a name that big can make a lot of money durring that time, why on earth would they take ayear off to train for a low-paying fight?

 

[FearlessFreep]

Or lose-lose

I agree. I think that's why you don't see more corss-overs like that. Why don't any of the Lopez family take on anyone n the Gracie family? Not worth it. It'd be awesome to see to people of that caliber in their respective sports going at it together but...no real motivation. Why go from being the top of the world in the rules you train for to maybe getting your butt kicked doing something new to you? Unless the money is *really* good, it's not worth it.

 

[Makalakumu]

I'm sure a cursory examination of the average MMA class would reveal our very human instinct to form social hierarchies. In fact, I worked out with a man who trained with Ken Shamrock in the Lion's Den and he assured me that there were egos a-plenty.

There is always a pecking order. **** always rolls downhill. A positive aspect of belts and rank is that it somewhat controls this process.

The belt is just a symbol and humans are natually symbol users. If you take away that symbol, humans will find another symbol...

 

[FearlessFreep]

There is always a pecking order

Agreed.

One other thing that belts help to do is to stage competiions. I mean, in training, a yellow belt against a black belt can be a great education. In a real match, it's absurd. The belts allow a ranking of competition so people can spar roughly against their peers so that the competition is meaningful.

 

[swiftpete]

I tell you what i'm not a bad grappler but there is no way in the world i'd go in the ring against tyson no matter what the rules, for any amount of money! If he did actually catch you with a punch, he would probably punch your head off your neck. Unless you're a 17 stone bruiser yourself, then your neck would probably just break. Either way, you'd more than likely be dead before you hit the ground!

 

[Shogun]

Seems like everyone who trains for 30 years or so decides that they deserve to be 10th degree. Maybe after 30 years he is really good, but 10th degree? come on, man! that's nuts.

Maybe. My outlook on it is if a person trains and then says they are grand-whatever..so be it. they are only as grand a their technique will allow. making yourself a 10th degree black belt or whatever doesn't mean you've mastered everything. it doesnt mean anything except you are the "master" of what you know.
I mean, Carlos and Gastao Gracie never came close to mastering Kosen Judo, yet they are 10th degree masters of Gracie jiu jitsu.

why? because they have mastered what they know. (plus, the gracies can, and have, proved the effectiveness)

Most will tell you that Gracie Jiu Jitsu is the most effective and scientific form of grappling. But the gracie family only spent about 5 years with the Judo teacher Maeda. so its more of what you can do and what you know, than how long you've trained.

 

[shesulsa]

Oh, but I think many times it is. How often can a guy get people to bow to him? Call him "master"? How often is the "average joe" in a place to tell people what to do and what is being done right or wrong? For some people, the tighter they tie that belt, the larger their heads become. Not all people. But for many of the insecure, otherwise socially inept people, its POWER. And you know the sayings about power.

I know this happens, but rank is not designed to be power-over in the sense of abuse. What you are describing is ego and, again, is a situation for a teacher to address. There are always going to be bad teachers, but again, it is not necessarily tied to the belt, rather a character flaw and unfulfilled psychological need. There are plenty people who don't hold rank but who have superiority complexes. This is nothing but incomplete training and/or a character flaw, IMVHO.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Most will tell you that Gracie Jiu Jitsu is the most effective and scientific form of grappling. But the gracie family only spent about 5 years with the Judo teacher Maeda. so its more of what you can do and what you know, than how long you've trained.

Bingo!

 

[Flying Crane]

Maybe. My outlook on it is if a person trains and then says they are grand-whatever..so be it. they are only as grand a their technique will allow. making yourself a 10th degree black belt or whatever doesn't mean you've mastered everything. it doesnt mean anything except you are the "master" of what you know.
I mean, Carlos and Gastao Gracie never came close to mastering Kosen Judo, yet they are 10th degree masters of Gracie jiu jitsu.

why? because they have mastered what they know. (plus, the gracies can, and have, proved the effectiveness)

Most will tell you that Gracie Jiu Jitsu is the most effective and scientific form of grappling. But the gracie family only spent about 5 years with the Judo teacher Maeda. so its more of what you can do and what you know, than how long you've trained.

Well, I don't think the Gracies is the typical example.

If I mastered the reverse punch and nothing else, and then claimed rank of 10th Dan, but all I could teach was the reverse punch, I'd be laughed out of the martial arts community. Not that quantity is what matters, but ya can't tag on a 10th degree for just anything.

Personally, I tend to shy away from people claiming high rank. I immediately view them with suspicion, esp. if I know they went thru the last couple of high ranks fairly quickly. Maybe I am limiting my possibilities. Maybe I could learn some great stuff from these people, but I see the 10th degree thing as an automatic red flag for an egomaniac. This is often true for the 7th, 8th, and 9th as well, especially if they are fairly young, like under 50. I don't need to be part of someone else's agenda, or empire.

 

[Fletcher]

Ranking systems may create some problems, but IMO, they also serve to motivate you to work harder so you can get to the next rank. Some people don't need this to stay motivated to work out, but many do. Even if you are one of the rare breed that trains every day for the love of it, the pat on the back you get when you pass your belt test still makes you feel pretty good about yourself, which helps you keep enjoying the activity you love.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ranking systems may create some problems, but IMO, they also serve to motivate you to work harder so you can get to the next rank. Some people don't need this to stay motivated to work out, but many do. Even if you are one of the rare breed that trains every day for the love of it, the pat on the back you get when you pass your belt test still makes you feel pretty good about yourself, which helps you keep enjoying the activity you love.

This is true, but I don't think the 7th-10th degrees are looking for the pat on the back...

 

[Fletcher]

This is true, but I don't think the 7th-10th degrees are looking for the pat on the back...

The legitimate ones aren't looking for that, but I'll bet they still feel pretty good when they get promoted. The ones that promote themselves want that pat on the back more than most people and can't find anyone to give it to them so they pat themselves on the back.

 

[Flying Crane]

The legitimate ones aren't looking for that, but I'll bet they still feel pretty good when they get promoted. The ones that promote themselves want that pat on the back more than most people and can't find anyone to give it to them so they pat themselves on the back.

yup, and this is, of course, what I am objecting to.

 

[Fletcher]

I can't stand people that promote themselves or promote their students when they don't deserve to be. However, I personally don't think that doing away with ranking systems would be of any benefit to MA. Parents want to know how their kids are progressing and it sets goals for everyone to work towords. I really think that doing away with ranking systems would hurt enrollment and make it harder to keep students coming to class, especially the younger students.

I realize that there are some schools that don't have any ranking system, but I don't know where any are in my area. I would be interested in checking it out to see if they have any problems like I think they would.

 

[Flying Crane]

I kind of wouldn't mind seeing a ranking system up to blackbelt. Once you have reached blackbelt, the only step next is to become an instructor. Once you are given permission to be a teacher, that is it.

We all know there is much more to learn, and we know from whom we can learn, and who is better than we are, but I don't think we need to have so many rankings beyond that. I think that is where the ego gets in the way. Besides, if someone reaches this point, they should be able to get their motivation to train from within themselves, not from another promotion that is coming up. If not, they don't deserve the blackbelt.

 

[Fletcher]

I kind of wouldn't mind seeing a ranking system up to blackbelt. Once you have reached blackbelt, the only step next is to become an instructor. Once you are given permission to be a teacher, that is it.

We all know there is much more to learn, and we know from whom we can learn, and who is better than we are, but I don't think we need to have so many rankings beyond that. I think that is where the ego gets in the way. Besides, if someone reaches this point, they should be able to get their motivation to train from within themselves, not from another promotion that is coming up. If not, they don't deserve the blackbelt.

That's a great idea. Now how do we get all these 10th dans to agree with us?

 

[Flying Crane]

That's a great idea. Now how do we get all these 10th dans to agree with us?

ooooohhhh, that's gonna be a problem!! Glad I've got one convert, tho!