Healing or aiding in psychosis

[Empty Hands]

trust me, i know what i am saying. i know i may not have expressed myself clearly enough. hope that it is enough.

No, I'm not just going to trust you. I have a Master's degree in Neuroscience. I spent three years reading and studying about this subject before I moved on to a PhD in heart research. I can post all of my sources. Can you, other than your personal experiences?

about the thing with schizophrenia and astmah being the same is very wrong in my opinion. maybe it is you who doesnt know as much as you think you do.

I didn't say they were the same thing Mr. Strawman. I said schizophrenia is as real as asthma and can be investigated using the same scientific tools.

the question is, do you even know what it is like without meds if you have never taken a differnt approach.

Yeah, we already found that one out more than 40 years ago. Like I said, confinement, restraint and beatings.

keep in mind i wasn't completely against the meds. i just wanted to point out how dangerous they can be.

You said they should only be used in the most extreme circumstances, and should be gotten off of ASAP. You also said one would be better off taking herbs. Sounds pretty anti-med to me.

 

[Empty Hands]

You meant. -no experience has effect on people.

No, that is not what I meant and not what I said.

I said, no experience will make you psychotic. There is a large difference between "an effect" and "psychosis." PTSD is an effect, which can be caused by experience. Delusions and auditory/visual hallucinations secondary to schizophrenia is a psychosis, and is not caused by experience.

 

[kaizasosei]

I didn't say they were the same thing Mr. Strawman. I said schizophrenia is as real as asthma and can be investigated using the same scientific tools.

yeah i know that's what you think. i wonder however, mr.brainiac, if you have the ability to understand what i am saying. that would be appreciated.

however, you seem like someone i wouldn't even like to joke around with much less try to discuss in a serious way.
i trust you and your papers as little as you trust me.

 

[kaizasosei]

I said, no experience will make you psychotic. There is a large difference between "an effect" and "psychosis." PTSD is an effect, which can be caused by experience. Delusions and auditory/visual hallucinations secondary to schizophrenia is a psychosis, and is not caused by experience. __________________

this i can agree with and relate too. i have sometimes spent time wondering what exactly is wrong with some cases....but most of the time, i think that brain chemistry and owns life circumstances go hand in hand. it's almost impossible to separate.
of course grave imbalances within the brain as well as the household will have deep or longlasting effects that are hard to pinpoint.

 

[Empty Hands]

yeah i know that's what you think. i wonder however, mr.brainiac, if you have the ability to understand what i am saying. that would be appreciated.

What have I failed to understand? I have addressed your points, and scientifically speaking, they are wrong. Science is no respecter of niceties, politeness or personal opinions. You are spreading falsehoods that have been shown to be incorrect using the scientific method, the best empirical tool available. The fact that a sick person might take your advice and act on it makes me feel absolutely ill, which is why I have countered you so strongly in this thread.

I have a schizophrenic aunt in my family. She thinks the government is after her. She sees laser rays from government owned mountaintops striking her home, and infecting her brain. Her life is a shambles. The fact that someone would stand in her way of getting the proper help she needs is enraging to a man of science.

i trust you and your papers as little as you trust me.

I don't trust you or distrust you. I have no basis for either. It is also completely, utterly, and totally irrelevant to our posts in this thread.

The fact that you distrust my "papers" however is very telling. It says you will refuse to believe in science if it goes against your personal beliefs and opinions. You and Big Don should discuss Global Warming.

 

[kaizasosei]

ok. sorry to keep this going like this but i did mean what i said somehow.
about the delusions and the schizophrenia one must almost differentiate between different types and degrees of the conditions in questions. and even aside from all chemical evidence- one cannot so easily understand the totality of why people are as they are. however, i am not arguing with science and accept much. but i think there many things that could be improved in my opinion.

if i am not mistaken empty hands, you may have slightly prescribed your medication a little too heavy already because originally the theme of this thread seemed to me to be geared more towards general diagnosis as schizophrenic- psychotic.- drugs and what is the correct course of action.
not really the heavy stuff although i understand your expertise may shed light as to the what is going on within the brain -

for all i know, focusing only on the brain chemistry may prove successful, because i have seen that many other approaches are not possible.
still i think it would be tedious process of analysis -that may even be traumatic for the patient.

k

 

[kaizasosei]

The fact that you distrust my "papers" however is very telling. It says you will refuse to believe in science if it goes against your personal beliefs and opinions. You and Big Don should discuss Global Warming.

yeah, that's exactly what i thought...keep telling yourself stuff -einstein. just don't be to rough on yourself ok..

peace

 

[Empty Hands]

yeah, that's exactly what i thought...keep telling yourself stuff -einstein. just don't be to rough on yourself ok..

peace

Uhhh...what? Look, if you refuse to believe the scientific evidence, than conversing with you has reached it's end. I only hope the other readers in this thread have seen this rejection, as well as my willingness to post the scientific evidence.

Hopefully that will allow the readers the discernment to ignore your points about mental illness.

 

[kaizasosei]

sounds fair to me---i was about to tell you to go back to the pill despensing machine---
but i would retract, sure-whatever- i'm open to learning more of your studies if you'll care to share.- if you think im full of it.it's all good, you have the right to your opinion.

 

[jks9199]

I'm not personally aware (and I've had a fair bit of psych education) of any psychotherapist that doesn't accept that some forms of schizophrenia exist. Psychotic breaks do happen; functional MRIs and autopsies can even find definite differences in how those brains work. But they don't agree on the reason or causation... Some - but not all - definitely appear to be chemical or structural within the brain.

With regard to psych meds, prescribed and used appropriately, they're fantastic. For chemical depression, for some forms of psychosis, for bipolar disorder, and more -- they make night and day differences for the client/patient. The drugs are making or helping their brain work "normally"; some can be weaned, but many cannot. However, used inappropriately, they can simply muddle the symptoms and vastly complicate the client's treatment. An easy example is the prescription of Ritalin for kids; currently, some school systems are all but writing the prescription, without the necessary thorough evaluation by appropriate clinical specialists. We're doping kids without knowing why they're have behavorial or learning problems... and we're doping kids who would be better served by other treatment.

The other problem with psych meds is that they all tend to have powerful, and often extremely unpleasant side effects. As a result, the clients often cease taking their meds... which can trigger even worse symptoms.

 

[jks9199]

trust me, i know what i am saying. i know i may not have expressed myself clearly enough. hope that it is enough.

about the thing with schizophrenia and astmah being the same is very wrong in my opinion. maybe it is you who doesnt know as much as you think you do.

the question is, do you even know what it is like without meds if you have never taken a differnt approach.

keep in mind i wasn't completely against the meds. i just wanted to point out how dangerous they can be.

OK... what's your background to support your viewpoint.

In the course of obtaining my bachelor's degree in criminal justice, I took enough psych courses that I was well beyond the requirements for a minor (a minor in psychology wasn't offered at the college I attended), and was within something like 2 or 3 classes of a full major in psychology. In addition to that, professionally, I've had to deal with psych patients, of many diagnoses, both on and off their meds. I've taken people involuntarily into custody, and had my decision validated by psychologists when they committed the person.

And I don't claim to be an expert! I know enough to speak intelligently with the experts. Instead of saying "acting strange and hearing voices", I can describe "a flattened affect, with auditory hallucinations."

What are your qualifications to dismiss the proven efficacy of appropriate psycho-pharmaceutical intervention, or the existence of recognized physical and psychological disorders?

 

[jks9199]

I have a schizophrenic aunt in my family. She thinks the government is after her. She sees laser rays from government owned mountaintops striking her home, and infecting her brain. Her life is a shambles. The fact that someone would stand in her way of getting the proper help she needs is enraging to a man of science.

Just on the note of causation of psychotic symptoms -- I have seen drugs cause psychotic symptoms. I once was dealing with a woman in town who, on the first incident, called us to report that people delivering furniture had stolen her purse. We learned a few days later that she'd hidden her purse... because she was sure that they were going to try to steal it. She called again a few days later because she was sure that her bank was sending the "phone police" to steal her records...

After discussing the case with her family -- we learned that she had recently changed a few meds (I don't know the details; I'm not a doctor! I know some of them were blood pressure or heart related...) Some adjustment of those meds by her doctor, and she no longer suspected that the phone police were lurking in wait for her...

 

[kaizasosei]

I'm not personally aware (and I've had a fair bit of psych education) of any psychotherapist that doesn't accept that some forms of schizophrenia exist. Psychotic breaks do happen; functional MRIs and autopsies can even find definite differences in how those brains work. But they don't agree on the reason or causation... Some - but not all - definitely appear to be chemical or structural within the brain.

i think that this is exactly what is happening here. a subtle misunderstanding. but it would really help to try to express the different viewpoints.

i know that some people have such intense experiences or fear or panic that they would not be able to do seemingly normal activities without being on medication. i can accept if someone feels that it is the best thing for them. in that case, they wouldn't listen to me anyway. but if possible, medling with the inner workings of the brain and basic wellbeing of ones brain and therefore entire self-should be avoided if possible. if it is not possible for reasons of the medication being very helpful or the patient becoming addicted, if the medication is truly helpful, it should not be changed in my opinion. any changes must be ordered with extreme care.

my advice for quiting the medication, was to do it with the assistance of the doctor that prescribed them and if possible their support. they will know how to be wheened off if it is so desired. it must be done gradualy.


sorry to regress but, as far as herbs in libraries go, i meant earlier, there are no herbs in libraries.
but libraries are a places of knowledge and herbs can be healing.
of course there are poisonous herbs too. conversely libraries too contain much madness as well as lies- . so maybe it was a dumb line. i dunno- still no harm done i feel

j

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just as a point of reference

schizophrenia

Any of a group of psychotic disorders usually characterized by withdrawal from reality, illogical patterns of thinking, delusions, and hallucinations, and accompanied in varying degrees by other emotional, behavioral, or intellectual disturbances. Schizophrenia is associated with dopamine imbalances in the brain and may have an underlying genetic cause.

Also more here
http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/schiz.htm

 

[BrandiJo]

Ok, really heated thread here i see.

Treating mental illness of any kind involves control and balance. Meds have serious side affects, herbs are less proven in American culture, they both may be good and they both may be helpful, however when you cannot function in day to day life then something needs to be done. It would be irrational and dangerous to go check out a book from the library and treat yourself, if you wish to go for a more natural approach find a DR who supports that and can safely (SAFELY) help you.

I know many people who cannot function with out the medication they are on. When they stop taking the meds or miss a douse they become ill, both from their mental illness and the withdrawal effects of the medication. I do tend to agree that medication is over used and over pushed by most Drs( mostly cold and add meds but thats another debate), however some people really do need them. I know one person very close and very dear to me would not be here today if she were not on medications to keep her stable and it took us a long time to find the right combination to help her. With proper use and proper prescribing the medications should not change who you are they should only help keep the real you in control. Not the one who thinks the world is out to get them and the only solution is to kill them selfs and anyone else.

Science has prove many times that mental illness is real,we have shown chemical imbalances in the brains of those affected, and while i do not know the ins and outs of all those studies, i can share from my own experiences that medications do help when used properly and with care.

 

[BrandiJo]

i know that some people have such intense experiences or fear or panic that they would not be able to do seemingly normal activities without being on medication. i can accept if someone feels that it is the best thing for them. in that case, they wouldn't listen to me anyway. but if possible, medling with the inner workings of the brain and basic wellbeing of ones brain and therefore entire self-should be avoided if possible. if it is not possible for reasons of the medication being very helpful or the patient becoming addicted, if the medication is truly helpful, it should not be changed in my opinion. any changes must be ordered with extreme care.



j

I do not know of a single Dr who would prescribe a mind altering drug with out extreme care, to suggest that one does it on a whim is a slap in the face to the medical community as a whole. Also meddling with the inner workings of the brain sometimes is the only way to help... ohh like having a tumor removed. There you are cutting into the brain, removing tissue, and then putting in rather large does of a known toxin (kemo) yet i know very few people who would argue that the tumor is better left in place, and we can give them a herb and see if that makes it all better. Most people when faced with a decision of should i do this and live or not do this and die (and yes people with mental illnesses face that too) they chose to live and medical intervention is sometimes the only way possible. Because believe me when you cant even get yourself out of bed in the morning because life feels so bad, death may just well be a preferable solution (not a good one mind you but preferable to staying in that situation) and with out medication they may not find relief. Now i am not saying that herbs do not work and cannot treat some things, even many things, but when it comes down to quality of life, i would rather go with pills that have a track record of working.

 

[kaizasosei]

well, i do think there are plenty of people who are not aware of the effects of their actions. even doctors cannot know everything. nor can the companies that make medication know everything. however, on a whole an attempt is made to keep everything controlled. - that is why extreme care must be taken by everyone in general as i am not limiting this to the administering of medication(which really is a big responsibility) but everything in life that involves responsibility.

about the herbs. i know that modern medication in the form of asprin antidepressants may seem really great in the bottles that it is packed in, but many if not most the ingredients for medication come from nature.- that means also herbs- even if something is synthesized in a lab, it often has natural origin. but i get what you're saying -because on a whole-the meds are more concentrated and potent.

about the schizophrenia, as i feel uncomfortable without further explaining myself. i really am not up for much arguing and bashing in this case.- basically, i believe that many disorders are labelled as schizophrenia to the point that the subject becomes less credible. not saying there is no schizophrenia-although i mentioned that there are people that are professionals which believe that the causes and effects of schizophenia are something else. i have some ideas, but i myself am not sure exactly what those professionals believe, but i know that they are out there. whether or not their opinion makes them an idiot would depend on what the truth is-#

as far as i am concerned anyone is an idiot that is not enough aware of their actions.

i didn't know -on a whole-that the medical community had a face to slap. that makes me wonder how much slaping of their own they are doing.?
what is a slap? could you exlplain to me how it would be a slap in the face of the medical community? as far as i see it, that should be like wrestling with a ghost.

i know it was meant as an expression. but honestly?, does the medical community on a whole(slightly idealistic sounding) even have the ability to be offended? i mean, slap in the face sounds very hands on and physical.

also, life is not purely physical. not like a tumor, people have experiences and suffering that cannot be cut away without understading cannot be removed without devotion. that is why many extreme cases of illness are almost futile to heal without medication. because it would take a whole set of new experiences and from the genetic point of view possibly even more of a challenge.

i would compare it saying life is a tumor. there are good tumors and bad tumors right?? a normal person is like a good tumor and a 'ill' person is like a bad one. and that is one tumor that you'd fist have to understand really well before you can even hold a blade to it.

j

 

[jks9199]

about the schizophrenia, as i feel uncomfortable without further explaining myself. i really am not up for much arguing and bashing in this case.- basically, i believe that many disorders are labelled as schizophrenia to the point that the subject becomes less credible. not saying there is no schizophrenia-although i mentioned that there are people that are professionals which believe that the causes and effects of schizophenia are something else. i have some ideas, but i myself am not sure exactly what those professionals believe, but i know that they are out there. whether or not their opinion makes them an idiot would depend on what the truth is-#

And, you'd be wrong. Any reputable mental health professional is extremely reluctant to make a diagnosis of any form of schizophrenia, because that diagnosis is so far reaching and has such a powerful stigma attached. Some diagnosises, like situational depression or chemical depression (yes, they're different), don't have nearly the stigma attached that they once did. Not schizophrenia... In fact, if anything, I'd argue that due to increasing misuse and misunderstanding of the disorder, it's got a greater stigma than ever.

I'd accept your argument for overdiagnosis of ADHD/ADD and many other learning disorders; schools are encouraging the diagnosis for a number of reasons such as ease of labeling and managing the student or acquiring grant money. Parents sometimes seek a diagnosis of some learning disorder to gain advantages for the kids on standardized tests. THEY AIN'T SCHIZOPHRENIA.

Several of us posting on this have explained our qualifications and reasons for knowing about psychology and psychological disorders; I challenge you again to do the same. You're spouting ideas without any support or logic behind them; tell us why we should be listening.

 

[kaizasosei]

OK... what's your background to support your viewpoint.

In the course of obtaining my bachelor's degree in criminal justice, I took enough psych courses that I was well beyond the requirements for a minor (a minor in psychology wasn't offered at the college I attended), and was within something like 2 or 3 classes of a full major in psychology. In addition to that, professionally, I've had to deal with psych patients, of many diagnoses, both on and off their meds. I've taken people involuntarily into custody, and had my decision validated by psychologists when they committed the person.

And I don't claim to be an expert! I know enough to speak intelligently with the experts. Instead of saying "acting strange and hearing voices", I can describe "a flattened affect, with auditory hallucinations."

What are your qualifications to dismiss the proven efficacy of appropriate psycho-pharmaceutical intervention, or the existence of recognized physical and psychological disorders?

sorry for doubling..

about me. i don't have any formal qualifications. i have studied some on my own but i am by no means anywhere close to being an expert in these fields. i do know enough or realize enough to have an opinion however.

 

[kaizasosei]

through martial arts and close observation i have come to see things as i do. i am not making that many final statements.
all i'm doing is telling you my opinion. disgard anything you think is not true but please try to understand as i am trying to understand the other viewpoints. i would be really glad if anyone would correct me, i would accept any reasonable explainations.