Other than the modest fee for Kukkiwon instructional seminars, no I do not pay for learning Taekwondo. And yes, my teachers would continue to teach me even if I didn't pay them, which I don't.
Have you ever been visited by Kukkiwon?
- Thread starter troubleenuf
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Other than the modest fee for Kukkiwon instructional seminars, no I do not pay for learning Taekwondo. And yes, my teachers would continue to teach me even if I didn't pay them, which I don't.
Not necessarily. If you wish to participate at the Olympic Games in Taekwondo, you are required to hold a Kukkiwon poom or dan certification. The Olympic Movement in the United States is governed by the Olympic Sports Act, which is federal law.
I don't agree with that either. My relationship with my teachers is the most important aspect of my martial arts experience, and Kukkiwon certification is a direct and tangible aspect of that relationship, since it was my teachers who created the Kukkiwon in the first place and sacrificed their own personal kwan ambitions in order to unify Taekwondo.
I am always inspired by the KKW instructors, I wish all my students could experience them in action. Also it would not cost me anything to interact with the KKW and that would be unusual
I am always inspired by the KKW instructors, I wish all my students could experience them in action. Also it would not cost me anything to interact with the KKW and that would be unusual
You could host a Kukkiwon Instructor Course seminar in your area, and I am sure before and/or after the seminar, the Kukkiwon instructors would be happy to spend time with your students.
Do they really think that? Or is that a conclusion that you are drawing?
I don't personally think that the KKW as an entity is more important than individual relationships between teachers and students. But I do think that if you teach taekwondo and have a Kukki sadan or higher, you should be issuing Kukki certs.
The relationship is separate from the certificate or the body that issues the certificate.
A school certificate is not my relationship with my instructor. It is a certificate that says that states that I passed a test that was conducted in that school.
An organizational certificate is not my relationship with my instructor. It is a certificate that says that states that I passed a test that was conducted by a school or instructor that it either part of or certified by the organization.
If the school is not part of an organization and the instructor is not affiliated with any organization within the art that you are learning from him or her, then the question of one vs. the other is moot.
If he or she is certified by an organization within the same art and is holds a high enough grade in that organization to issue dan certs (and is in good standing), then he or she should be issuing dan certs from that organization.
If the instructor simply lacks the grade to issue his or her own certificates, he or she should ask the instructor who certified them if they would be willing to come to his or her students' dan gradings (this assumes a good relationship between the instructor and the instructor's master and that the instructor's master is aware and appoves of their pupil taking on students of their own).
Daniel
Terry the president of KKW was in Las Vegas as Master Marlow stated. @ World TKD my kids train there get regular visits from KKW Officials but they are more social than inspections.
They love Vegas!!!!!!
World Taekwondo, is that the school run by Master Joe Bennett?
Yes
Ok but like you said it was more of a social visit, not there to critique or to give insight on certain techs. I guess what I am trying to understand how are they going to change what people have been teaching for all these years and get everybody on the good ship lollipop. Thank you for the info.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Just a feeling I have gained over the years from reading MT. I could be entirely off base. Then again, if I am right, it's hardly something anyone would admit to.
I think that it is fair to say that some, perhaps many, believe that a Kukkiwon certificate is superior to a dojang only certificate, but again, that is distinct from the student/teacher relationship. Now, the certificate does not imply that the holder is in any way superior, but the certificate itself allows access to things that a dojang certificate does not.
As I have said previously, if you are practicing Kukkiwon material at a school you attend, and the instructor is a Kukkiwon sadan or higher, then he or she should be issuing Kukkiwon certificates. That would include schools meeting the above criteria teaching palgwe pumse. As Glenn likes to say, give the same certification that you received.
To a great degree, the value of an organizational certificate varries from person to person, based on their goals. If all that I want is to earn a black belt and then move on (something that many people do), then a dojang dan is as good as an organizational dan. Sometimes, though, peoples' goals change and they find themselves in a position where an organizational cert would be of benefit. So, if you train in a school that has organizational affiliation, you should at least have access to the organizaitonal cert, though frankly, I believe that schools with organizational affiliation should be issuing organizational certifictes.
Daniel
dancingalone
Grandmaster
I think you're assuming the two things never come into conflict based on your writings in this thread. They can and do, perhaps even frequently. Suppose a student's teacher decides to sever relations with the KKW. This has occurred before, regardless of whatever semantics we might choose to label the situation. It occurred in the early days of taekwondo when some of Hwang Kee's students left him for the KTA.
The student in such a case then has a choice to make. Continue on with his teacher, accepting that any further rank will be in-house only, or to break with his teacher for the organization. I would imagine most would elect to go with their teacher, but I could conceivably see some students, particularly if they have attained high rank already, choose to continue to advance with the organization. And if so, they would be holding the org as higher than than their own teacher.
This is a scenario that has repeated itself across JKA karate and Aikido with the Aikikai/Ki Society split. No martial art is immune from it.
I was referring mainly to posters on MT, though I absolutely agree with your post.
Daniel
miguksaram
Master of Arts
I know this question was not directed at me, but I am waiting at work for a test to be ran so I thought I would put in my $.02 worth...I have already explained my outlook of having a KKW cert in another thread so I won't rehash it here. However, when running a school you have to think like a consumer. Why should I care if this instructor has a piece of paper on the wall...so does the instructor down the street. What's the big deal?
A new student doesn't have that attachment that someone like myself has to it. They are new so they need to be taught the value of it past being a piece of paper. I liken it to having your certification of passing the bar exam or even certification of passing you specialty in medicine. You show the consumer that you have undergone and passed a strict set of criteria to be certified in what you do and you try to get them excited in training to try and reach that same goal of certification.
I don't like the idea of someone stepping in from KKW to dictate how I train my 1st - 3rd dans. The KKW Instructor Course that they set up is what I strive to be in line with and as long as my students or myself meet the criteria, that should be all they need to know.
As for people who would argue "how can you tell someone how just passed vs someone who did excellent" I just simply ask this "What do you call a man who finished dead last in medical school?"....Doctor.
Depending on who you listen to, and their perspective, but it was the majority of Moo Duk Kwan members, an overwhelming majority really, that chose to go with the flow and be a part of the KTA. The Moo Duk Kwan was different from other kwans in that it was run by a Board of Directors who set policy and voted on what to do. GM HWANG Kee was outvoted and after that, he chose to break off from the Moo Duk Kwan. You can get part of this even in GM Hwang's own books such as the History of the Moo Duk Kwan, which describes the organizational structure. The reason why it was set up with a Board of Directors (which more than one pioneer said was very progressive for the time) was because GM Hwang was only slightly senior in experience to his students. It is similar to what I believe several members of MT have going in their own club. Also, other Moo Duk Kwan members felt that GM Hwang was not their teacher, that they learned more from people such as GM KIM Ki Whang, a Karate dan holder who learned in Japan.
Or they could remain with their teacher and still belong to the organization.
Aikido was my first formal martial art that I studied, so I have an interest in it. My grandfather signed me up, and my teacher was our mailman, who was his friend. I remember speaking with some Aikido people from that era and they said that the split between teacher (Tohei Sensei) vs. organization (Aikikai) was extremely bitter. People still harbor ill feelings regarding that, even though it has been almost 40 years. Some of the ones who went with the organization did so because they objected to Tohei Sensei's personal habits and lifestyle.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
I can't see that being an option in most cases where the teacher has split off. I guess stranger things have happened though.
It's a crazy subject. You'd think people would have moved on by now, but I guess some still are angry over the split. <shrugs> I have friends who are in the Ki Society. Honestly their aikido is not so different from mine.
It was a very difficult time. The fight really was between Tohei Sensei, who was the Chief Instructor and the face of Aikido in the eyes of many, vs. Kisshomaru Sensei, the son of the founder, who had the name but perhaps not the personality or ability of Tohei Sensei. So that one was a real difficult choice. I think the only difference they tell me is the Ki training, keep one point, keep weight underside, etc. Ki Society seems to be more generous with promotions, at least here. Of the people who started in the early 50's, the highest Aikikai dan is 7th Dan, while there are several 8th and 9th Dan from the Ki Society. That is another source of resentment and bitterness amongst the two groups.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Some koryu arts are able to minimize the inevitable conflict when a founder passes away by keeping the head of the art position as a hereditary position. Meanwhile the chief instructorship could certain be awarded to a non-family member.
I've heard that too. There's an old slander floating around that you should demote Ki Society people by 2-3 dan ranks to arrive at their true level. I don't think that's true today and I was likely wasn't around when it first started. I've always thought these aikido political quarrels were unseemly for an art that is supposed to be about peaceful mediation of conflict.
The Honolulu Aikikai headquarters dojo is a short 6-7 minute street drive from my house, and I was thinking about starting up again (sometimes it's good to be a beginner and put on a white belt again). So I went to watch a class and ended up speaking to one of the senior instructor, who has been training 55-60 years and was a 7th Dan. I asked him when was he going to get promoted and his face sort of went down and he said that he is maxed out at 7th Dan. I thought maybe it was because he was channeling some dark side energy and they didn't want to promote him because of that. Then I went to a Ki Society school which is about 8 minutes away and he felt a little sith as well. He had higher dan rank, but there was something funny about the club and the students, who were seemed to be afraid of the instructor. I ended up not joining either because of that. Maybe it was me and the vibe I gave them, I don't know. I always thought Aikido was supposed to be cooperative and peaceful, but these instructors had something else going on. oh well I guess it wasn't meant to be.
