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Deleted member 48484
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Has Shotokan Karate helped you in self-defense before?
if yes, what did the scenario look like ?
if yes, what did the scenario look like ?
Has Shotokan Karate helped you in self-defense before?
letsplaygames
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Only true altercation i had ... I got on my bicycle and gassed my assailant, the exited stage left.
I.) If your situational awareness is where it should be... 99% of the time one should not have self defense situation.
II.) Most don’t recognized a true self defense situation till its too late (i.e when your life is REALLY in danger)
One would think with the popularity of MMA that would have changed... it appears (at least from my perspective) the complete opposite has taken place.
The “High School Hallway scenario” where the combatants know each other, and there is a crowd of bystanders to witness it and break it up .... is “unfortunately” what many train for... what many think a self defense scenario is. They just envision scenario in different locations, parking lot, mall etc...
They Train an MA to save face...
The reality (again taken from my perspective... and my perspective only) is totally different than what most believe and are taught.
Take my encounter as an example. There was 3 ... with one being the main predator. 2 stood back, waited... I got on the bicycle (my terminology for evasive footwork) expecting the 2 to jump me from behind, or plow in if I got the better of the main predator. Turn my back and run? Take down and grapple ?
Legions are training BJJ... which works exceptionally well in the High School Hallway... Usually Never in most real situation where you are truly in danger ... that last statement could also be said about a lot of karate too
Three undeniable truths of self defense...
A) thugs come in gangs, gang members don’t just stand by and watch 1vs1...
B) Real lone wolf knuckle draggers will always have a force multiplier (i.e. a weapon)
C) Predators are opportunists ... they will only pounce when they perceive the situation will be in there favor.
I.) If your situational awareness is where it should be... 99% of the time one should not have self defense situation.
II.) Most don’t recognized a true self defense situation till its too late (i.e when your life is REALLY in danger)
One would think with the popularity of MMA that would have changed... it appears (at least from my perspective) the complete opposite has taken place.
The “High School Hallway scenario” where the combatants know each other, and there is a crowd of bystanders to witness it and break it up .... is “unfortunately” what many train for... what many think a self defense scenario is. They just envision scenario in different locations, parking lot, mall etc...
They Train an MA to save face...
The reality (again taken from my perspective... and my perspective only) is totally different than what most believe and are taught.
Take my encounter as an example. There was 3 ... with one being the main predator. 2 stood back, waited... I got on the bicycle (my terminology for evasive footwork) expecting the 2 to jump me from behind, or plow in if I got the better of the main predator. Turn my back and run? Take down and grapple ?
Legions are training BJJ... which works exceptionally well in the High School Hallway... Usually Never in most real situation where you are truly in danger ... that last statement could also be said about a lot of karate too
Three undeniable truths of self defense...
A) thugs come in gangs, gang members don’t just stand by and watch 1vs1...
B) Real lone wolf knuckle draggers will always have a force multiplier (i.e. a weapon)
C) Predators are opportunists ... they will only pounce when they perceive the situation will be in there favor.
Urban Trekker
Brown Belt
That's unfortunate? Because for a scenario beyond that, you need to be going the range regularly.
All of the fights I've gotten into in my adulthood, except for one, were with people who were under the influence of alcohol or drugs. The deal with people under the influence is that they're not inhibited by the lack of weapons or lack of fellow gang members present, nor do they have the foresight to assess whether or not the situation will end favorably for them. But these scenarios can and do happen.
letsplaygames
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+ 1. Totally agree!
25 yrs I lived in Metro Detroit, every violent crime that I read about in and around Detroit... the only MA that I thought applicable was “Foot to Pavement Fu”!
2nd Amendment and a CDL are the best self defense options...
letsplaygames
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In a real self defense scenario you don't think you took a step backwards going from Karate to BJJ? I'm honestly asking and not trolling. I'm curious into the mindset of a grappler on real self defense.
I never bar hopped without a wing man... Not much of a wing man if they just sit there and let a complete stranger choke out their buddy. Same goes for gang members, When you disrespect one ...You disrespect all of them! (at least that is how they are in Detroit... I've never seen or read in the papers a gang not perceiving reality that way.) I've never seen anyone in a real altercation take on 2-3 real attackers using grappling methods. I've seen on youtube people try it... It didn't end well.
The Lone Mugger scenario.. a high percentage use a weapon. I don't know, nor have seen any grappler who could deal with a serious knife attack..i.e. without taking a serious, possibly life ending wound(s).. Every mock scenario I've seen on youtube or witnessed hat starts with a very aggressive sewing machine attack, the grapple defense falters, and breaks.. if successful.. serious, often fatal wounds would have been acquired during the defense. (No one talks about going into shock and what happens to the body when that happens) Because of the lethalness of knife attacks FBI and law enforcement teach distance (i.e. mobility as a defense) while employing a firearm.
Ok... So one get's lucky and runs into a Thug Mugger who uses his fists to thrash money and valuables from his victim, that's a level of violence few even if "booked up on technique" are prepared for. The best can and do freeze. OK trained BJJ guy submits the thug... Then what.. ??? Hold him tell he says "Uncle" then let him up? In an ally? A deserted parking lot? rool the dice and let him up? Dislocate, break... what? Who trains to end someone's life? Going further on the this .... the BJJ guy chokes the thug out and doesn't resuscitate his attacker. Is his attacker now the victim? , Is that murder? Or does one resuscitate the guy who just attempted to mug them? If not.... sure would look like murder to an innocent bystander walking by. Might look that way to a judge... IDK... honestly IDK...
I'm a firm believer you react under extreme pressure by how you train and what methods you train in. I see a lot of rolling in BJJ, which IMO is counter intuitive to effective self defense... which is always based around mobility using distance as a defense. I've had BJJ guys say .. that's exactly what I'd train to do i.e. "maintain distance!"
Ok... then what about that is different or superior to Karate?...
From my perspective and maybe I'm missing something and I could be... but I don't see a lot of reality outside of sport in BJJ. Most BJJ focus on Rolling, take downs, slips, entering, mount technique, guard technique, submissions, chokes etc etc Yes... Yes...and yes.... that's really effective mono vs mono or in sport... Yet..... In Reality it is extremely rare a "duel to the death" by hand to hand combat happens . I just don't read that in the newspapers...
Face Saving" violence. Drunk on Drunk... Drunk vs Sober... scenarios like that... all martial arts IMO are equal.
IMO.... Urban Trekker basically dropped the mic and walked out the room and ended this thread with the " for a scenario beyond that,(i.e Saving Face in School Yard scenario) you need to be going the range regularly. I totally agree... training with a focus on mobility and employing a force multiplier (i.e. a weapon preferably a firearm ) is training self defense. Period... all other school yard scenarios Karate is sufficient
Graywalker
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Not a shotokan practitioner, but I have been successful using Shudokan (Toyama.a senior to Ginchin) and have found it to be very effective.
I've never seen a striking art train knife defense in any way that seemed at all likely to succeed. If there's a weapon, you've really got three choices if you can't defuse the situation:
- Run significantly faster than them long enough for them to give up (however long that takes.
- Hit them enough they stop trying to stab you....while not being stabbed (you're in knife range when you hit them).
- Get ahold of the arm holding that weapon and restrain it (or perhaps control them from a direction they can't use it, but that's a reach).
If the person is delivering hard sewing-machine stabs, there aren't many people who will have an answer to that, even with training.
And, no, I don't think a CCW is usually a good option for self-defense. Most folks are poorly trained with their weapons, and even worse at drawing them quickly to get on target. And knife vs gun-not-yet-drawn goes pretty badly on average within about 25-30 feet if the knife wielder is actually attacking. With sufficient training and a good understanding of the limitations of the weapon, a gun can be effective. Most people I've known who carried lacked at least one of those two elements.
Urban Trekker
Brown Belt
Knife attacks appear to be pretty rare, especially when you compare that to the number of instances of gun violence. FTR, between knives and firearms, I carry both as part of my EDC.
Urban Trekker
Brown Belt
Exactly, and let's just put out there the fact that people who take up martial arts in order to win school yard (types of) fights tend not to stick around long anyway. It costs money, it costs time that you could be sitting on your couch at home watching Netflix, and it requires you to stick to it for a long time. After awhile, they'll decide that they'd rather just take their chances untrained. And I wouldn't blame them. If that's why you're doing it, it's not worth it.
Agreed. I was just responding to the poster's comment that grappling against a knife was fundamentally flawed.
letsplaygames
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I totally get all the above...
(Most folks are poorly trained ) It's the same "why" that causes people saying "XYZ" martial art doesn't work.
Tactical firearms training is no different. They train you to deal with a knife attacks, they train you to deal with multiple attacker, they train you to deal with another person using a firearm against you. It is a MA all to it's self. It's not a one and done course. (or I say... it shouldn't be)
My original post wasn't meant to troll Hanzou. It was to get and understanding of someone who has bought into the narrative of the modern day MA. A lot of what I see... I just don't understand for the reasons cited.
Historically... traditional non grappling martial out number grappling arts 10 to 1. ( the plethora of Kung Fu styles, various Karate ryu etc ) Historically.... these arts always were coupled with weapons training. Kobudo for example...
Why is that? I've seen on the internet.. the hypothesis... the 10 to 1 ratio is because grappling was military based. There is no historical evidence of any truth to that. In fact historical evidence (primary source accounts point to the exact opposite...) Debunked was the myth that Karate was created by peasants... this truth... falls in line with the historical premise above.
Training in weapons ... I.e modern ones like a firearm (the modern sword) seems logical... seems concurrent with traditional martial arts. I'm convinced that our societal environments and norms haven't change all that much throughout history. ( a quick read of the Bible says exactly that) The toys and inventions... have changed.. but how we think and act no... I think the same questions I posed above have been plaguing MA's for eternality... Hence the real reason for the 10 to 1 ratio. (I also believe there are no right or wrong way.. what works for the individual is the right way.. period)
(Most folks are poorly trained ) It's the same "why" that causes people saying "XYZ" martial art doesn't work.
Tactical firearms training is no different. They train you to deal with a knife attacks, they train you to deal with multiple attacker, they train you to deal with another person using a firearm against you. It is a MA all to it's self. It's not a one and done course. (or I say... it shouldn't be)
My original post wasn't meant to troll Hanzou. It was to get and understanding of someone who has bought into the narrative of the modern day MA. A lot of what I see... I just don't understand for the reasons cited.
Historically... traditional non grappling martial out number grappling arts 10 to 1. ( the plethora of Kung Fu styles, various Karate ryu etc ) Historically.... these arts always were coupled with weapons training. Kobudo for example...
Why is that? I've seen on the internet.. the hypothesis... the 10 to 1 ratio is because grappling was military based. There is no historical evidence of any truth to that. In fact historical evidence (primary source accounts point to the exact opposite...) Debunked was the myth that Karate was created by peasants... this truth... falls in line with the historical premise above.
Training in weapons ... I.e modern ones like a firearm (the modern sword) seems logical... seems concurrent with traditional martial arts. I'm convinced that our societal environments and norms haven't change all that much throughout history. ( a quick read of the Bible says exactly that) The toys and inventions... have changed.. but how we think and act no... I think the same questions I posed above have been plaguing MA's for eternality... Hence the real reason for the 10 to 1 ratio. (I also believe there are no right or wrong way.. what works for the individual is the right way.. period)
jobo
Grandmaster
well if they do indeed learn to win those fights, there is little need to stick around any longer than that
people tend to stop having driving lessons when they have reached the pre determind level of ability, if they can now" drive" is a value judgment
Urban Trekker
Brown Belt
I remember hearing a stat somewhere, and I think it may have been on the Art of One Dojo YouTube channel, that 50% of students who start TMA don't stick around past 3 months (or something like that, numbers could be off some). This is consistent with my anecdotal observations. That's not going to do much for anyone.
Even if what I said above was a non-issue, that's not a good analogy. You continuously train for things that do not occur on a regular basis. Like fighting. If you're driving your car to work and back everyday, you're already staying sharp from that.
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Since you started with the assertion that folks who start with the intention to learn to fight schoolyard fights don't stick around, I'm assuming you're linking this statistic to that claim. Where's the evidence the folks you're talking about here started for that reason?
My experience is that folks don't stick around for a number of reasons, but three reasons seem to be the most common from observation. Either it's more work than they are willing to put in (getting sore and such), it's not as much fun as it looked (some folks are just joining because MA looks like fun - which it is to most of us who stick), or other priorities get in the way (keeping time open for MA classes would interfere with other priorities).
Urban Trekker
Brown Belt
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So, just abandoned that claim and jumped to something different. Got it.
Nope. As I said, that's from observation, not a study.
Urban Trekker
Brown Belt
Nope. Your assumption that I was going to post some link was wrong.
Urban Trekker
Brown Belt
Ah, the very thing you were trying to get at me for. I see how it is.
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