Has me thinking

[Xue Sheng]

Yesterday morning, after everyone left, I was doing some Taiji (a little Chen style) in my garage and a thought came to me. I was thinking about people in fitness as compared to those in martial arts. Gilad (60 years old), Jack LeLane (died at 96 Years old) and even the guy that plays Sporticus on the TV show my youngest use to watch, Magnús Scheving (49 years old). But it is not just them, a lot of people in the fitness business are in great shape and they should be, it is their job. They eat well, exercise and go on with long and active lives. And the same can be said for some martial artists but by comparison, to those in fitness, not many.

Thinking about martial artists of the same age and I have to say, in general they do not seem to be in the same shape, or for that matter, even close to the same shape as those above… myself included. The specific thought that started this was thinking about Chen family members now as compared to just 8 or so years ago. They are all older and in better shape than I am but still they are not in as good a shape as they were just 8 years ago. And without naming names, if you look at most of the guys around today that have benign MA for years (and are not in movies, and even there for some it is the same) they are not in really great shape. Bottom-line, very few of us are in the shape Bruce Lee was. But I also understand that very few of us have the time to train like Bruce Lee or Gilad or Magnús Scheving or the late Jack LeLane...but is that a good excuse....

It is not that martial artists of the same age group are not skilled, they most certainly are, it is just they do not appear to be as fit as those in the fitness arena. And I do not actually expect them to be the same since the focus is a bit different, but in some cases they are not even close (myself included) and you would think they should be at least close.

Nothing much else to say… it just got me thinking about focus and what to focus on these days and that maybe at over half a century the focus needs to change a bit.

Thoughts

 

[K-man]

I think that it comes down to life choices. If you are deriving your income from fitness then it stands to reason that you will work out and keep in the best shape possible. Obviously your work also helps to maintain your body shape and fitness.

For the rest of us, we do what we can in the time we have available. I can keep up with most guys half my age but the fitness gap really starts to show when the younger guys build their fitness to a higher level. I could spend more time at the gym, I could shed a few kilos, but hey, I have a life outside of MAs and fitness, and at 66 I ain't getting any younger. Life is a balance. My priority is to keep fit and healthy and enjoy what life has to offer.
:asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

I know that even 10 years ago I could do more exercises than anyone that was my student or anyone that came in to visit. I taught all the classes and did all the exercises with all the classes.
Today I must admit I can no longer do that . I have not lead exercises in years and it shows. I have got out of shape and weak.
I think if a person runs his/her school as a full time business then they need to do the exercises with the class. Lack of exercise ( calisthenics) leads to one losing muscle and getting fat

 

[Zero]

Yesterday morning, after everyone left, I was doing some Taiji (a little Chen style) in my garage and a thought came to me. I was thinking about people in fitness as compared to those in martial arts. Gilad (60 years old), Jack LeLane (died at 96 Years old) and even the guy that plays Sporticus on the TV show my youngest use to watch, Magnús Scheving (49 years old). But it is not just them, a lot of people in the fitness business are in great shape and they should be, it is their job. They eat well, exercise and go on with long and active lives. And the same can be said for some martial artists but by comparison, to those in fitness, not many.

Thinking about martial artists of the same age and I have to say, in general they do not seem to be in the same shape, or for that matter, even close to the same shape as those above… myself included. The specific thought that started this was thinking about Chen family members now as compared to just 8 or so years ago. They are all older and in better shape than I am but still they are not in as good a shape as they were just 8 years ago. And without naming names, if you look at most of the guys around today that have benign MA for years (and are not in movies, and even there for some it is the same) they are not in really great shape. Bottom-line, very few of us are in the shape Bruce Lee was. But I also understand that very few of us have the time to train like Bruce Lee or Gilad or Magnús Scheving or the late Jack LeLane...but is that a good excuse....

It is not that martial artists of the same age group are not skilled, they most certainly are, it is just they do not appear to be as fit as those in the fitness arena. And I do not actually expect them to be the same since the focus is a bit different, but in some cases they are not even close (myself included) and you would think they should be at least close.

Nothing much else to say… it just got me thinking about focus and what to focus on these days and that maybe at over half a century the focus needs to change a bit.

Thoughts

There are several points in here and I will probably cover them all incorrectly but my take, observations and experience is this.
You (used in the general and not specifically you, XS) need to be careful when you look at those in the "fitness" industry and those you call "fit". The word "fit" itself, as a point in case, can mean different things these days, ie. "wow she/he looks/is fit!" As in, what a killer body but not sure if he/she can sprint 100m or do half marathon or last two rounds in the ring, etc. Through a very disciplined diet and solid training (but not necessarily training that gets you fit, ie: with good cardio, endurance, explosive power) you can have an awesome looking and defined body. You see a lot of these physiques on the TV and in the gym these days.
Then you have someone that trains more like an athlete for a specific purpose and they will be incredibly fit (ie: high cardio, endurance levels, etc) and while having a good physique by dint of their training and healthy diet (required to maintain the levels of training), they may not look like a sculptured Adonis.
Bruce Lee was somewhat of both of the above categories, from what I gather. A very skilful martial artist (not necessarily competitor though, rather an artist) and who also focused a lot on experimenting with physical training and diet and supplementation (for what was known and around at the time).
Then you have Joe Regular Martial Artist, goes to karate 2 or 3 times a week for hour or so, maybe does one or two jogs on the road out of that, and eats ok, or not ok at all. He should hopefully be able to go a few rounds on the mats, for fun or for sport, and keep up with some callisthenic training during the hour or two of club training. But he is neither an athlete nor a "fitness circuit model". He is Joe average. And while athletes, and fighters, of today are every bit as good (or better (perhaps on a physical level, not necessarily skill level)) than athletes of the past, maybe Joe Averages of today are less than what those of the past were on a physical level? I am not sure at all regarding that last sentence and besides, average is simply average of the time in question so what does that matter in real practical terms?

Another point is that those that train and compete hard in martial arts, even the best, take significant punishment on their body and heads over the years and while for a period they may be just as buff as "fitness circuit" types, when they get to forty or so (or older/younger), injuries that were never felt before will flare up, old damage thought long healed will rear its head and the athlete with the once well honed body cannot perform like the counterpart "gym body" that has not taken big hits over the years. Those martial artists that have not competed full contact or whose style is softer need not suffer this type of damage, but as you say, the focus has never been on an aesthetic body, and sometimes not even on a powerful or enduring physique. And so you find the tai chi master with a pot belly or the owner of the TKD school that no longer regularly takes the PT part of the class or struggles to run up a couple flights of stairs...such is the way of things.

 

[Xue Sheng]

For clarification purposes: I am not looking at the "wow she/he looks fit" or saying "what a killer body" nor did the word "buff" ever enter into my noggin. also not talking specifically about sports MA types they train rather hard and take lots of punishment. Talking in general meaning the comparison of one group to another. Talking overall health....not at all from a superficial point of view.... fitness and nutrition combined

 

[Buka]

I think the exercise people have the advantage. Their primary goal is fitness, and all the physical undertakings they endure have to do with fitness. While we Martial Artists have the primary goal of control or destruction of another person as a whole...or in part. All the physical undertakings we endure are geared toward that in one way or another. I think so, anyway.

 

[Zero]

For clarification purposes: I am not looking at the "wow she/he looks fit" or saying "what a killer body" nor did the word "buff" ever enter into my noggin. also not talking specifically about sports MA types they train rather hard and take lots of punishment. Talking in general meaning the comparison of one group to another. Talking overall health....not at all from a superficial point of view.... fitness and nutrition combined

Thanks, didn't think you were. My point was just sometimes appearances can be deceiving. But if it is simply in the realms of fitness professionals vs general martial artists, then I'm inclined to agree with Buka, in a general sense. Although, how old are these fitness proponents you are comparing against martial artists?
I think back to when I was a young martial artists and tournament fighter, competing in judo first and then karate and kickboxing and I was fit as buck on monkey juice. Every day (other than club night) after work or Uni I would run the hills and then work my techniques. And every bit of spare time was sparring or working on the boxing and heavy bags in my family garage. Leading up to a fight I used to be on the floor fighting one club member after the next, sometimes for twenty minutes or more without break. There were and are many others doing the same training for their styles of course, and some of them I knew were not even into competition, they were just pushing themselves to find the limits. I feel they could hold their own against a fitness type proponent (so maybe I don't actually agree with Buka in a general sense...?).

Again, how old are these fitness proponents you are seeing? Are there that many still about and in their prime post mid-late thirties or into forties and beyond?

 

[Shai Hulud]

It's an issue of lifestyle choices. I personally consider myself to be in great shape due to the caveman, paleo and kettle-bell training supplements I have to complement my Keysi training. But in no way am I a match for, for example, my former bunkmate who was into parkour and freerunning.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thanks, didn't think you were. My point was just sometimes appearances can be deceiving. But if it is simply in the realms of fitness professionals vs general martial artists, then I'm inclined to agree with Buka, in a general sense. Although, how old are these fitness proponents you are comparing against martial artists?
I think back to when I was a young martial artists and tournament fighter, competing in judo first and then karate and kickboxing and I was fit as buck on monkey juice. Every day (other than club night) after work or Uni I would run the hills and then work my techniques. And every bit of spare time was sparring or working on the boxing and heavy bags in my family garage. Leading up to a fight I used to be on the floor fighting one club member after the next, sometimes for twenty minutes or more without break. There were and are many others doing the same training for their styles of course, and some of them I knew were not even into competition, they were just pushing themselves to find the limits. I feel they could hold their own against a fitness type proponent (so maybe I don't actually agree with Buka in a general sense...?).

Again, how old are these fitness proponents you are seeing? Are there that many still about and in their prime post mid-late thirties or into forties and beyond?

I did not think you were talking directly to me but I felt clarification was needed

I listed the 3 that got me thinking, with ages, in my first post

Gilad (60 years old)
Jack LeLane (died at 96 Years old)
Magnús Scheving (49 years old).

I am not looking at young people here, which is why in my first post I said "myself included" I am over half a century. I mean no offense, but I am not an idiot and I am not comparing apples to oranges here. If I were to take a look at the guy that runs the Wushu/Sanda school in my area who is in his late 20s or early 30s and compare him to me I don't stand a chance and if I compared him to the 3 I listed he is probably at their level.... however take many (not all) of the MA people of the same age group or for that matter looking just a Jack LeLane in his 80s, not many, myself included (over 50), could compare to him same for Gilad at 60 he too is in better shape that most people (not just martial artists) that are considerably younger. And that is not surprising considering his profession but comparing to Martial Artists who also are training something physical as a group we tend to not be even close. In all honesty I would not expect us to be the same but somewhere in the vicinity might be a good thing

 

[Zero]

I did not think you were talking directly to me but I felt clarification was needed

I listed the 3 that got me thinking, with ages, in my first post

Gilad (60 years old)
Jack LeLane (died at 96 Years old)
Magnús Scheving (49 years old).

I am not looking at young people here, which is why in my first post I said "myself included" I am over half a century. I mean no offense, but I am not an idiot and I am not comparing apples to oranges here. If I were to take a look at the guy that runs the Wushu/Sanda school in my area who is in his late 20s or early 30s and compare him to me I don't stand a chance and if I compared him to the 3 I listed he is probably at their level.... however take many (not all) of the MA people of the same age group or for that matter looking just a Jack LeLane in his 80s, not many, myself included (over 50), could compare to him same for Gilad at 60 he too is in better shape that most people (not just martial artists) that are considerably younger. And that is not surprising considering his profession but comparing to Martial Artists who also are training something physical as a group we tend to not be even close. In all honesty I would not expect us to be the same but somewhere in the vicinity might be a good thing

Thanks, sorry, had missed the ages in brackets on my read of your first post. Each to their own and maybe others have desires or focuses elsewhere, which is perfectly fine, but I hope I can manage to hold onto at least a vestige of my physical (if not mental) abilities in my dotage.
Looking at those guys which you have used as examples, it seems they have been quite rounded individuals, in that (at least Lelane and Gilad) have been holistic in their fitness approach, with diet and wellbeing also being of key importance.

Nutrition, adequate sleep levels (in amount and hopefully at optimal times (ie long term shift-work can be a killer!), appropriate rest/recuperation periods; these are all very important for the long term abilities for anyone and particularly anyone that is training hard. From my own peer group and friends, I know a lot of good martial artists that don't take the holistic approach, some of them are very senior in level and some have been great fighters in their youth. But most do not pay attention to their diet, a few smoke, a lot enjoy getting on the sauce and partay late. And when you get older, the body is less able to just shrug off those excesses.

If you want to be the whole thing, then all sides of the equation need to be attended to.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Xue I think it has a lot to do with focus. The gentleman you reference make their living from fitness so it is a very, very high priority for them. For some instructors in the Martial Sciences their priority is not fitness but instead having physical skills that may allow them to survive in a moment of violence. However, if they take overall cardio fitness and place it behind the physical skills this is a mistake. Cardio is very, very, very important for your ability to defend yourself. It is very important that people understand this... If you are fit (as much as you can be) you then have the means to deliver your training for self-defense. It is no different than strength training. You need that as well and it will help you in a moment of violence! Training at it's best involves cardio both aerobic and anaerobic or with and without air, strength training and attribute and flexibility training. Combined with technique training, pressure testing, etc. When put all together it can make a martial practitioner very dangerous to deal with in a moment of violence and if you are doing the above you can bet you will be fit like Gilad, etc.

 

[Zero]

Xue I think it has a lot to do with focus. The gentleman you reference make their living from fitness so it is a very, very high priority for them. For some instructors in the Martial Sciences their priority is not fitness but instead having physical skills that may allow them to survive in a moment of violence. However, if they take overall cardio fitness and place it behind the physical skills this is a mistake. Cardio is very, very, very important for your ability to defend yourself. It is very important that people understand this... If you are fit (as much as you can be) you then have the means to deliver your training for self-defense. It is no different than strength training. You need that as well and it will help you in a moment of violence! Training at it's best involves cardio both aerobic and anaerobic or with and without air, strength training and attribute and flexibility training. Combined with technique training, pressure testing, etc. When put all together it can make a martial practitioner very dangerous to deal with in a moment of violence and if you are doing the above you can bet you will be fit like Gilad, etc.

Absolutely agree with this, and have seen this or even simply reference to it completely omitted from some clubs. Practising techniques again and again and against others should produce at least some endurance and basic stamina levels but not nearly enough in my opinion, and it is only my opinion (but founded on some personal experience, observations and the experience of others far more experienced). Physical ability and attributes such as enhanced fitness, stamina and strength (especially when coupled with practiced and tested skills) will go a long way to getting you through and out of a dangerous situation or physical confrontation.