Hard Contact - Necessary or Not?

[c2kenpo]

I guess I meant my comment in a more generic way...

Some folks avoid contact like the plague. I attribute the loss of most beginning students in Yili to a fear of contact. We don't start out smacking the beginners around (much), but they watch the more senior students duking it out and turn and run...

What I meant was, in the opinion of folks in this thread, how important is "free" sparring, and to what degree does heavy contact impact sparring?

I understand what your question is a bit better now.

Yes unfortunaly a number of people want to see the "cool" stuff and when they do they may get frightened off so to speak.
An example would be a training partner of mine and I when to a seminar and were avidly following directions of the instructor and so on. When it came time to work the technique and drill we did so as though we normally do. (NOTE: My partner and I have been training together for 4 years so we have learned how each other moves and generally have the same understanding of motion and being the body.)

At first we decided to work with other students and found that some...minor contact "touching your target without penetration i.e slap on the back" was an almost foriegn concept to them. This did make it difficult to learn and work the ideas being presented. We also both ran into some that lacked self-control and an understanding of equal reaction, meaning I can hit you as hard as I can but dont dare touch me! When my partner and I returned to working with each other many were "frightened" to work with either of us again due to the "level" we were working on.

To avoid the fear factor I think you need to show what you are working on in the "attention" state meaning slow and methodical to students but whomever your body is you may want to explain to those watching what your training relationship is.
My instructor when using me for a body will always say that we have been working out for a number of years and have built a level of trust and understanding and that is why he can hit me as "hard" as it seems (Kenpoists understand that). I have never been hurt yet, had my bell rung a few tho!

So we lay the foundation of building block and that going from "attention state" to "intention state" to "Aliveness" (Matt Thornton's conceptual idea I believe ~ have not seen anything really on it yet but get the gist of it)
Takes time and practice and yes the occasional bruise will happen. Kinda educating students about getting hit.

Sorry for the lenght. :asian:

David Gunzburg

 

[FasterthanDeath]

Hard contact. It gives you a real taste and fear of pain. Allows you to feel what might happen in a real situation. Of course, someone gets KO or hurt. But as time goes on we all learn control and can slap and stun each other enough to makes are knees bend. I know one thing. You fight how you practice. So if you practice lightly you will fight lightly.

 

[grappling_mandala]

Isn't having a cooperative partner unrealistic? How can you really judge, even at a scaled down level, your actual ability if your partner a) knows what is coming and b) is ready to comply with the technique before its thrown?

Doesn't working with a resistant partner, requiring you to have to "stun" him a tad to get him compliant, create a more realistic training situation?

Discuss...

It's good to have a sparring partner that maintains control no matter what 'level' the sparring is occuring at. I agree with you in that by practicing 'forms' the element of the jab and the stun is lost, but only in so far as it teaches you what it's like to get hit and survive. You can develop all the critical distance line awareness in the world and if your not familiar with the kinesthetics involved in fighting... the result is you don't know how to fight.

It's not going to kill ya, it just doesn't feel like posies all the time. People who can RESPOND will be the ones that walk away. Training in martial art doesn't mean you are invincible, it means you know what you are capable of doing!

Now does that mean granny training at the club gets a beating!?! Of coarse not.... At our club we use 'progressive resistance'. That means we have a spectrum of complexity in both technique and volume/energy. ALL practice takes place in an ALIVE environment. Meaning that if you learn a form/technique and can't use it in a resistance based drill you might as well not know it.

Once a technique is learned it's applied in the context of resistance so we can find the true path of LEAST RESISTANCE. How can you know the path of least resistance if you don't practice in an environment that gives you a wall of resistance to work through?

A lot of it is trust. Skilled players can increase the complexity of their sparring and the 'VOLUME" in which they are sparring. This means a novice can work a jab cross combo with someone who is going to keep them honest, who is going to COMMUNICATE and NOT DOMINATE them. Someone who will make the better, but will keep them honest. Honesty in the arts is something missing today in a lot of 'traditional' schools that focus on ONE RANGE of combat and refuse to train in other ranges. (I.E. the ol' grappling vs. standup debate)

As for techniques:

Alive training can be a jab cross combo, as long as your partner is resisting by using his/her elbows to cover and return some jabs with active footwork. (SBG calls this the crazy monkey and is very fu'd out) How else can you train a jab cross combo? The bag don't hit back!

When sparring within all ranges the same energy that would 'stun' someone would surely blow out a knee with a cross over or thai kick. Do we want to do that to a 'partner'? Of coarse not. So here's my theory, even when guys go 'all out' they arn't going 'all out'. Or someone would go away in an ambulance. Everything else is just sparring. Be nice to granny, get her to use her tools effectively!

Impact blows which stun effect the central nervous system either by blunt trauma to the head or spine, or by nerve strikes which interupt the signal just the same. The same impact on muscles? Bruising, cramping, etc... If that impact blow is aimed at structure, then we have trauma to joints, ligaments, and other things that don't grow back together easy.

My point? However you 'increase' your intensity and 'spar for real', there is only so much you can do before you have to deviate your lines into a more peaceful resolution, but that doesn't mean that you arn't learning every time you have the honor of stepping on the mat with a training partner. ANY partner.

Kindest Regards,

Dave Copeland
Portland, Oregon

 

[grappling_mandala]

PS- Alive training can be any combination of ranges, tools, and patterns of attack/defense with a variable volume control. As long as you train smart and often your skill will naturally increase! It's just like magic! But it requires hard work!

Dave in Oregon

 

[DeLamar.J]

How many Chinese stylists out there actually mix it up and run their techniques against an uncooperative opponent?

How hard do you hit each other? How hard is too hard?

Just some questions...

Enjoy.

Hard contact is only necessary if you want to be able to apply your techniques in a real fight. :boxing:

 

[Zujitsuka]

I am not a CMAist, but I'd like to throw my two cents onto the table.

Unless you are training for a full-contact fight (e.g. K-1, Shidokan, etc.) I think that hard contact (i.e. medium force) is good, but not all-out 'knockout contact.' People would just get injured all the time and not want to spar. I did a little boxing and even in the gym I trained in, Church Street Boxing Gym in NYC, when guys sparred we usually didn't go all out. You can't risk the injury. Besides, loading up for a power shot usually throws off speed and accuracy.

The few all-out fights that I had in the boxing gym stayed ringing in my ear (literally) for days. Hey man, it just isn't worth it.

A little pain is good to keep you honest (i.e. keeping your guard up and your chin down, etc.), but there is no need to straight-up hurt each other.

Peace & health,

 

[cyrus369]

at my school white belts usually just go slow, finding targets and such for 6 months, then at yellow most students feel comfortable to add some speed and power. we usually go med-hard contact, while some of the upper belts it looks like they are just going all out. in the past month 1 person has snapped a rib and the other broke 2 ribs. strangely they both were broken by 1 knuckle punches.