Hapkido/ TKD Crosstraining

[IcemanSK]

I've noticed a lot of TKD masters (& Hapkido master, too) have rank in both arts. My question is, if you study one, how much more training is it to get rank in the other? If I'm a TKD 3rd Dan, would my Hapkido training be excelerated?

 

[Kumbajah]

If you are studying traditional Hapkido - I would say no. In fact the opposite from what I've observed. Even though they come from the same country the methodology is different. (great generalization coming) TKD is linear where HKD is circular. We've had some 2nd and 3rd Dans come in to train and most found the transition difficult. If you have studied a linear way of doing things for many years switching to a circular method is going against everything you've trained to ingrain.

The kicks are similar but they are not the same. (Another gross generalization coming) In the TKD people I've seen the knee is more of a factor rather than the hip in kicking. Kicking in HKD is more of a full body activity. Usually I can spot who has rank in TKD before I even ask. Its hard to break habits.

This is not a criticism of TKD. I'm just trying to point out that they are more different then people think. It goes the other way as well. I have a friend that studies Ryu Kyu Kempo. He has tried ( emphasize tried) to show me some things from their traditions, all I hear is - "no, too loose - stop moving so much, block harder" etc. Things get ingrained and it is hard to break it.

 

[IcemanSK]

If you are studying traditional Hapkido - I would say no. In fact the opposite from what I've observed. Even though they come from the same country the methodology is different. (great generalization coming) TKD is linear where HKD is circular. We've had some 2nd and 3rd Dans come in to train and most found the transition difficult. If you have studied a linear way of doing things for many years switching to a circular method is going against everything you've trained to ingrain.

The kicks are similar but they are not the same. (Another gross generalization coming) In the TKD people I've seen the knee is more of a factor rather than the hip in kicking. Kicking in HKD is more of a full body activity. Usually I can spot who has rank in TKD before I even ask. Its hard to break habits.

This is not a criticism of TKD. I'm just trying to point out that they are more different then people think. It goes the other way as well. I have a friend that studies Ryu Kyu Kempo. He has tried ( emphasize tried) to show me some things from their traditions, all I hear is - "no, too loose - stop moving so much, block harder" etc. Things get ingrained and it is hard to break it.

I don't mean to generalize.... and I mean this with the utmost respect. A lot TKD masters that I've seen also have a Hapkido BB rank included in their resume (eg. 7th Dan TKD, 5th Dan Hapkido) yet they don't also teach Hapkido, nor incorporate joint-locks or throws into their ciriculum. Why is this?

 

[terryl965]

I myself is a 4th in tkd, I have taken some Hapkido but hold no rank the instructor wanted to cross rank me but I could not do that if I did not earn that rank. I mainly did it for the jpoint locks only so rank was not my oblective in the training.
Terry

 

[arnisador]

Seeing someone with rank in both is very common--especially for a TKD isntructor to have HKD certification as well. I'm sure it'd be somewhat easier for you because you have prior experience, but unless it's taught in an integrated program, I don't know that it would be a great deal easier.

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22725

 

[rmclain]

I don't mean to generalize.... and I mean this with the utmost respect. A lot TKD masters that I've seen also have a Hapkido BB rank included in their resume (eg. 7th Dan TKD, 5th Dan Hapkido) yet they don't also teach Hapkido, nor incorporate joint-locks or throws into their ciriculum. Why is this?

This is a great question. I've seen this in other schools too. I hope someone can provide an answer for us.

Hapkido is a major style taught in our system - beginners learn how to fall right away and take downs against 10 basic grab situtations. The Hapkido portion of our curriculum expands from there. Our main line is from the Chang Moo Kwan (karate & Chuan-fa) which my teacher began training in 1951, but he additionally trained with Grandmaster Ji Han Jae starting in 1958, if I remember correctly. Combined the requirements from all of the arts into a comprehensive system called, "Chayon-Ryu," when he came to the US in 1968.

R. McLain


R. McLain

 

[Kumbajah]

Here's some anecdotal evidence - I went into a place that advertised both mainly TKD asked about the Hapkido and after some prodding he admitted that they only taught a few locks and then did his best to get me out of there before class started.

An other person who I trained with moved away found a similar place after a week of training the instructor told him that they really don't teach hapkido but he was welcome to continue training.

I heard a few others or something similar to "I study TKD and we did hapkido too" They then show me the couple of joint locks that they learned. I know a lot of kicks and punch combos - I won't claim to know TKD.

So basically I think it comes down to marketing. 2 black belts are better then one. Whether the knowledge is actually there is up to scrutiny.

Now for the seemingly arrogant part - TKD apparently needs HKD - HKD doesn't need TKD.

 

[IcemanSK]

Here's some anecdotal evidence - I went into a place that advertised both mainly TKD asked about the Hapkido and after some prodding he admitted that they only taught a few locks and then did his best to get me out of there before class started.

An other person who I trained with moved away found a similar place after a week of training the instructor told him that they really don't teach hapkido but he was welcome to continue training.

I heard a few others or something similar to "I study TKD and we did hapkido too" They then show me the couple of joint locks that they learned. I know a lot of kicks and punch combos - I won't claim to know TKD.

So basically I think it comes down to marketing. 2 black belts are better then one. Whether the knowledge is actually there is up to scrutiny.

Now for the seemingly arrogant part - TKD apparently needs HKD - HKD doesn't need TKD.

I think you're right about your last statement. A TKD master seems more well-rounded if he/she also has the HKD background. But I know some HKD folks w/ TKD rank thrown in too. (And I do mean thrown in). I hate to be cynical, but I think it is a marketing thing.

 

[JAMJTX]

I've noticed a lot of TKD masters (& Hapkido master, too) have rank in both arts. My question is, if you study one, how much more training is it to get rank in the other? If I'm a TKD 3rd Dan, would my Hapkido training be excelerated?

Yes, Hapkido is essentially a blend of Tae Kwon Do and Daito Ryu (or Aikido depending on who you listen to). But regardless of all of that, it is a powerful art.

Your TKD training will benefit you greatly.

 

[spud]

I can only talk from personal experience so please don’t consider anything I say to be all in compassing or an expert option by any means.

I trained in TKD to 1st Dan then my instruction taught only the black belts HKD separately (2 hours TKD then 2 Hours HKD 5 nights a week). I found that the mind set was very different & we had to develop a “switch” so we could go from one two the other smoothly.

The kicking was the same (front snap. Side snap, round house etc) although the targets changed (could now kick below the belt) & there are a many more types of kicks in HKD than TKD. Then there are all the different striking techniques (could now punch above the shoulders) & all the other aspects involved in HKD.

Back then no one really had heard of HKD so it wasn’t common if at all for schools to be advertising booth styles. Now days (god I’m sounding like a geriatric) it’s a different story.

When I move from Sydney to Brisbane I went to many schools looking for a good one to train at. One in particular grabbed my attention when they spent the last 20 mins of the class doing basic HKD techniques. When a spoke with the instructor after class I asked him what level he was in HKD, he didn’t know what I was talking about & went on to assure me that the self defence was TKD when I assured him that a 2nd Dan in HKD knows HKD when he see it he wanted to argue about it. In the end I suggested that he talk to instructor about it as I’m sure he knew the difference.

Needless to say I didn’t train their, any martial artist who’s so closed minded isn’t someone I want to train with.

I see many TKD schools now doing HKD self defence techniques & claiming to be instructing both but don’t have mats & couldn’t roll or throw to save their lives, sorry but I don’t personally consider that HKD & I think they are misleading students somewhat. Just my 2 cents worth. I gained 4th Dan in Both TKD & HKD but no longer train in TKD (not good for geriatrics, we might break a hip LOL).


The only real advantage was the flexability & general training [FONT=&quot]skills gained through TKD training that helped give me a head start on say someone who would walk in off the street these days who has done no MA training yet.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hope this helps a little.
[/FONT]

 

[matt.m]

I study Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido at the same time. I am here to tell you that even though the kicking is the same, Hapkido has three art unique kicks that tae kwon do does not have.

Even though they are both Korean, their ciriculum is totally different. I will give an example, my father is a master in Hapkido I have watched him grading the purple belt test. I have seen a Tae Kwon Do black belt fail the purple belt test because of kicking, dad wanted the traditional style of the kicks. The TKD bb was doing the modified sparring versions.