That's a good point. I often feel that we train ourselves to expect responses that are unnatural because and untrained person will not react the same way as a trained person. Sometimes, it's good to anticipate how a regular person will react.
Hapkido falling skills
- Thread starter mastercole
- Start date
I don't think you have to fall endlessly to be effective nor actively participate in a falling art, especially a joint-locking art.
The whole reason we fall or flip is to avoid damage to the attacked joint. IF the student performing the technique is skilled in control, it is simple to lock out the joint or perform the mechanics of the hyper-extention or break without demanding the recipient leap, flip or fall. Of course, the emphasis would HAVE to be on the trust gained from the goal of complete control. This involves holding back on attacks.
I do hope you are able to safely, gradually increase your falling skills, mastercole, both through slightly increased practice (not so much in the time per training session, but more training sessions dedicated to safe falling) and through gradually and carefully reducing your padding / gauge of mat.
It stands to reason that if one can even reduce the likelihood of a complex fracture to that of a hairline or simple fracture, even this improvement is desirable over the potential complications of the alternative.
The whole reason we fall or flip is to avoid damage to the attacked joint. IF the student performing the technique is skilled in control, it is simple to lock out the joint or perform the mechanics of the hyper-extention or break without demanding the recipient leap, flip or fall. Of course, the emphasis would HAVE to be on the trust gained from the goal of complete control. This involves holding back on attacks.
I do hope you are able to safely, gradually increase your falling skills, mastercole, both through slightly increased practice (not so much in the time per training session, but more training sessions dedicated to safe falling) and through gradually and carefully reducing your padding / gauge of mat.
It stands to reason that if one can even reduce the likelihood of a complex fracture to that of a hairline or simple fracture, even this improvement is desirable over the potential complications of the alternative.
Holding back, or learning control. I don't think it is ever ok to injure your training partner, especially intentionally. We are here to learn, not show how much we can hurt people if we want to.
It is learning control. Some people barely understand "holding back" let alone learning control. Trying to illustrate what to some may be obvious. :asian:
zDom
Senior Master
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2006
- Messages
- 3,081
- Reaction score
- 111
One thing I have noticed pretty much across the board is that most hapkido styles have wrist breaking techniques in their curriculum in which the person receiving the technique uses a fall to unwind the attacked joint.
We have a couple in our curriculum but we make clear to students that they are not actually throws.
One reason is that it allows the person doing the technique to get a large range of motion in the direction of attacking the joint. But I wonder if those setting hapkido curriculums also include some to provide their students with an option for a counter should they ever find themselves in imminent danger of joint damage from an attackers joint manipulation. Just a thought.
If an art is all joint lock, I don't see really any reason to learn falling, other than for acquiring a general well being skill.
In Moo Sul Kwan hapkido, we use enough full circle judo-type throws that we have to have the falling skills to help our fellow students get enough reps in their throwing to be proficient.
What I don't understand is your advice to reduce the padding/gauge of the mat. I don't feel that conditioning to fall on hard surfaces has any benefit.
I didn't fall, I attacked the floor.
Whilst I see the reason in reducung the padding, from experience, I can tell you that it only leads to higher rates of injury.
It certainly can and it reveals limitations in falling skill. You don't fall in sand the same way you fall in grass or on concrete.
You don't?
Because I know it will be asked, of course I teach breakfalls. But good breakfalls don't come from drilling, they come from being thrown in a bunch of different ways and on puzzle mats over concrete is not the time or place for a Taekwondo student, particularly a kid, to be thrown a bunch of different ways
Yeah, drilling alone isn't enough to be really skilled at falling. Doing it from a throw teaches you to do it in all sorts of situations. But I think drilling Nak Bup is important in developing a foundation so you can go on to do that safely. And yeah, you definitely should do that on a big soft mat at first!
You're totally right about that. Beginners shouldn't be falling just on the puzzle mats. More advanced students, sure. I do it all the time. But a beginner could get hurt that way. (GM says growing up in Korea they did it on a wood floor, and in the army he had to do it on rocks, but I'm definitely not that hard core, lol.)
The problem with falling technic is...as we get older they hurt more but if you don't practice them enough they hurt even harder.
In Hoshinkido, we fall a lot so if we don't train enough in falling...all the rest will be terrible.
So, can you do less I think so.....But still need to do some to keep your body in good shape for it.
In Hoshinkido, we fall a lot so if we don't train enough in falling...all the rest will be terrible.
So, can you do less I think so.....But still need to do some to keep your body in good shape for it.
Judoka develop what the Jap call "round body"
In NA, we prefere the "V" shaped body of a body builder.
Repetative throwing will thicken the trunk...no way around it...and I hate the look of thick obliqes, lol But it is the curse
If you want to throw, you stand in line just like everyone else, and you do your break falls...
I am 50, I still do my share of falls...
does it hurt the next day...'ell yes! Do I let the ol' lady or any one else see it! 'ell no, LOL
Crap...same goes for joint breaks or reaps
It all hurts...always has. You suck it up. Admit it to yourself, deny it to any one else
Adversity is not about what others think of you...it is a measure of your own fortitude
In the end, it doesn't matter what any one says...you live with yourself...
In NA, we prefere the "V" shaped body of a body builder.
Repetative throwing will thicken the trunk...no way around it...and I hate the look of thick obliqes, lol But it is the curse
If you want to throw, you stand in line just like everyone else, and you do your break falls...
I am 50, I still do my share of falls...
does it hurt the next day...'ell yes! Do I let the ol' lady or any one else see it! 'ell no, LOL
Crap...same goes for joint breaks or reaps
It all hurts...always has. You suck it up. Admit it to yourself, deny it to any one else
Adversity is not about what others think of you...it is a measure of your own fortitude
In the end, it doesn't matter what any one says...you live with yourself...
firstpe315
White Belt
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2011
- Messages
- 1
- Reaction score
- 0
Some interesting take on this debate. All good opinions.
One can argue the theory that one must fall to learn how to throw properly...but what I do know after decades of Hapkido is that to learn how to FALL, you have to be THROWN...
One can argue the theory that one must fall to learn how to throw properly...but what I do know after decades of Hapkido is that to learn how to FALL, you have to be THROWN...
Doomx2001
Green Belt
- Joined
- May 6, 2011
- Messages
- 163
- Reaction score
- 6
When it comes to falling skills this is my take on it: First, breakfalls shouldn't hurt. If they hurt the person either has a prior injury usually with their back or they are not doing them right. Most people that I've seen do breakfalls in Hapkido don't do them right. It comes across as more acrobatic than battlefield skills. The breakfalls that we do reguardless of style, in even in martial arts in general, were made to be done outdoors. Alot of people forget that or neglect that all together. When a person gets into a fight, they are not on the cushy mats of the Dojo. They are on grass, concrete, gravel, and wood. And these surfaces might be wet or dry.
I believe all breakfalls should be practiced outside as well as inside. Also, a good way to check to see if your doing your breakfalls correctly is that they should be really quite. You shouldn't make much noise when you do your breakfalls, whether that is a forward roll or a side breakfall. If your making alot of noise, then that is evidence that your bascially taking a 'bump' which is a pro-wrestling term for intentionally allowing yourself to be hurt in the most spectacular way to please the crowd. We aren't supposed to take 'bumps' were supposed to prevent injury when we come in contact with the ground, hence learning breakfalls.
Also, another gauge to check if your doing them right, is they shouldn't hurt. If they hurt then your not doing them right.
Again, every should be able and should practice their breakfalls in their front/back yard. I am not a fan of acrobatic breakfalls as that creates a false sense of security on the part of the defender when they 'throw' someone that makes them believe that is how the person on the street will be have when the attempt a throw. Also, acrobatic breakfalls I believe take a toll on the body.
That is my two or three cents.
I believe all breakfalls should be practiced outside as well as inside. Also, a good way to check to see if your doing your breakfalls correctly is that they should be really quite. You shouldn't make much noise when you do your breakfalls, whether that is a forward roll or a side breakfall. If your making alot of noise, then that is evidence that your bascially taking a 'bump' which is a pro-wrestling term for intentionally allowing yourself to be hurt in the most spectacular way to please the crowd. We aren't supposed to take 'bumps' were supposed to prevent injury when we come in contact with the ground, hence learning breakfalls.
Also, another gauge to check if your doing them right, is they shouldn't hurt. If they hurt then your not doing them right.
Again, every should be able and should practice their breakfalls in their front/back yard. I am not a fan of acrobatic breakfalls as that creates a false sense of security on the part of the defender when they 'throw' someone that makes them believe that is how the person on the street will be have when the attempt a throw. Also, acrobatic breakfalls I believe take a toll on the body.
That is my two or three cents.
zDom
Senior Master
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2006
- Messages
- 3,081
- Reaction score
- 111
I agree that breakfalls shouldn't hurt.
Ours aren't acrobatic, they are practical. They enable us to be thrown many times during a training session with no ill effects.
And breakfalling should also keep us from injury should we ever have to fall off the mat, or at least reduce the injury depending on how hard the fall and how hard the surface.
I DISAGREE that they should be quiet. When we hit the mat, the bigger the boom the better. The boom comes from us striking the ground with body parts that are better able to stand the impact (arms, legs) than more vulnerable parts. The "drumroll" sound is usually concurrent with more painful falls. Silent falling is magic. I don't know any magic.
I think anyone practicing a throwing art at any time would have loved to have our falling mats available. I think they did the best they could with what was available, historically.
If you are rolling out of the fall, that's great: but very many falls you are coming into the ground perpendicularly which means a rollout is not possible.
I have no false sense of security about how a fall will feel outside, nor do I have any desire to go out and seek that experience on purpose.
I've fallen by accident after slipping on ice — pretty much like the results of a major outer reaping throw. And I got up and went to work none the worse for the wear except for a slightly bruised hip.
And we know that people we throw who aren't trained will land in some spectacular, random, and very likely painful and injurious, manner if we throw them.
Doomx2001
Green Belt
- Joined
- May 6, 2011
- Messages
- 163
- Reaction score
- 6
Sorry it took me so long to reply even though no one was asking for one. I've been busy here as of late.
Anyway, the point I was trying to get across about quiet breakfalls is mainly directed toward the Forward Roll and Backward Roll (and to a slight degree a Side Breakfall). The quieter those rolls/breakfalls are, the more painless the rolls become. Forward rolls and Backward rolls should be smooth, quiet, and fluid.
Now, other breakfalls on the other hand is a different story as your attacker or the enviroment effects how you fall to a degree. So they may tend to be more noiser.
Another quick note about forward rolls and backward rolls is that they are not just made for 'roll outs' from being thrown. They are also made for evasion as way to quickly evade a sudden charge. They are made as way to get back on your feet quick after tripping or being pushed by your attacker. And, as a method to recover a weapon or something of value on the ground from your attacker before he has a chance to get it.
On the point about practicing breakfalls outside, it is for me, the most important thing to get across with this whole debate. Because it gets to the core of what Hapkido is about: Self-Defense.
Since the inception of martial arts, there have more than likely been different soft surface materials that warriors have trained on for practice. But the majority of training was done outside for most warriors. Breakfalls are not a modern invention, they are several hundreds of years old. They were designed for the battlefield so as to prevent injury and promote quick recovery on ones feet to continue fighting.
Modern Dojo/Dojang conditioning creates a mental mindset where people come to train on soft cushy mats, go through the motions, say all the Dojo motto's, do all their bows, and go home. But, that is the problem. The majority of martial art students, leave the bulk of what they learned in the dojo. It is a subconcious conditioning where they brain associates a particular enviroment for one thing but not another. An example would be High School. People go to school to learn, and when they get out, they get jobs or do whatever. For most of these graduates or drop outs, that is the end of academic learning. Most people don't take it upon themselves to educate themselves further on their own accord post High School. Its like a switch has went off in their head. Now they are in worker ant mode. They are so used to people coming to them to present them with a education that their brain on a subconscious level decides that is how learning is done. Presented, not acquired.
Anyway, the point is, if people always train in the dojo that creates the same mentality for the majority of students. No one is ever thinking of how to deal with a fighting situation in the park, at Mcdonalds, at school, and at work these days when training inside the 'safety' of the dojo. They assume these life saving skills will just 'kick in' when a bad situation happens outside the dojo. But it doesn't work like that. Not for majority of people I've come across.
By training outside, we are helping people to see and connect what they are learning in different enviroments. So that what they are learning can be done anywhere and not just in the movies.
Also, people get so comfortable with the idea of 'mats' that they forget they can just as easy get a broke neck on a soft cushy mat as they would training on the ground.
And really, there is very little difference between training on the ground and on mats in the dojo when it comes to the cushioned landing ( I can say this from first hand experience). If a person learns to breakfall correctly, training on grass will be no problem, but now if they are doing breakfalls incorrectly, they will feel it! For we have to remember breakfalls were made for the battlefield (hard ground, battle ships, grassy areas, the forest, forts, castles....etc).
Without the experience of doing breakfalls/training outside, people build a unrealistic fear of the ground for no reason. Also training outside is a great way to break the montony of training indoors. Its also a good opportunity for everyone to get together after training to have a barbcue, go hiking, check out the wildlife....etc.
I am a big advocate of outdoor training as it connects mentally what your learning in the dojo with 'reality'. The outside, the rest of the world.
Because it takes martial arts from being this indoor activity to something real, something that you can take with you everywhere. Its not just something only Koreans can do.
Anyway, speaking of Koreans, here is a good video on some outdoor training as done in Korea. Some things were over sensationalized for the video, but if you notice, they apparently have no fear of ground, nor do they seem to suffer any negative effects thereof.
Anyway, the point I was trying to get across about quiet breakfalls is mainly directed toward the Forward Roll and Backward Roll (and to a slight degree a Side Breakfall). The quieter those rolls/breakfalls are, the more painless the rolls become. Forward rolls and Backward rolls should be smooth, quiet, and fluid.
Now, other breakfalls on the other hand is a different story as your attacker or the enviroment effects how you fall to a degree. So they may tend to be more noiser.
Another quick note about forward rolls and backward rolls is that they are not just made for 'roll outs' from being thrown. They are also made for evasion as way to quickly evade a sudden charge. They are made as way to get back on your feet quick after tripping or being pushed by your attacker. And, as a method to recover a weapon or something of value on the ground from your attacker before he has a chance to get it.
On the point about practicing breakfalls outside, it is for me, the most important thing to get across with this whole debate. Because it gets to the core of what Hapkido is about: Self-Defense.
Since the inception of martial arts, there have more than likely been different soft surface materials that warriors have trained on for practice. But the majority of training was done outside for most warriors. Breakfalls are not a modern invention, they are several hundreds of years old. They were designed for the battlefield so as to prevent injury and promote quick recovery on ones feet to continue fighting.
Modern Dojo/Dojang conditioning creates a mental mindset where people come to train on soft cushy mats, go through the motions, say all the Dojo motto's, do all their bows, and go home. But, that is the problem. The majority of martial art students, leave the bulk of what they learned in the dojo. It is a subconcious conditioning where they brain associates a particular enviroment for one thing but not another. An example would be High School. People go to school to learn, and when they get out, they get jobs or do whatever. For most of these graduates or drop outs, that is the end of academic learning. Most people don't take it upon themselves to educate themselves further on their own accord post High School. Its like a switch has went off in their head. Now they are in worker ant mode. They are so used to people coming to them to present them with a education that their brain on a subconscious level decides that is how learning is done. Presented, not acquired.
Anyway, the point is, if people always train in the dojo that creates the same mentality for the majority of students. No one is ever thinking of how to deal with a fighting situation in the park, at Mcdonalds, at school, and at work these days when training inside the 'safety' of the dojo. They assume these life saving skills will just 'kick in' when a bad situation happens outside the dojo. But it doesn't work like that. Not for majority of people I've come across.
By training outside, we are helping people to see and connect what they are learning in different enviroments. So that what they are learning can be done anywhere and not just in the movies.
Also, people get so comfortable with the idea of 'mats' that they forget they can just as easy get a broke neck on a soft cushy mat as they would training on the ground.
And really, there is very little difference between training on the ground and on mats in the dojo when it comes to the cushioned landing ( I can say this from first hand experience). If a person learns to breakfall correctly, training on grass will be no problem, but now if they are doing breakfalls incorrectly, they will feel it! For we have to remember breakfalls were made for the battlefield (hard ground, battle ships, grassy areas, the forest, forts, castles....etc).
Without the experience of doing breakfalls/training outside, people build a unrealistic fear of the ground for no reason. Also training outside is a great way to break the montony of training indoors. Its also a good opportunity for everyone to get together after training to have a barbcue, go hiking, check out the wildlife....etc.
I am a big advocate of outdoor training as it connects mentally what your learning in the dojo with 'reality'. The outside, the rest of the world.
Because it takes martial arts from being this indoor activity to something real, something that you can take with you everywhere. Its not just something only Koreans can do.
Anyway, speaking of Koreans, here is a good video on some outdoor training as done in Korea. Some things were over sensationalized for the video, but if you notice, they apparently have no fear of ground, nor do they seem to suffer any negative effects thereof.
Last edited by a moderator:
zDom
Senior Master
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2006
- Messages
- 3,081
- Reaction score
- 111
Yep that is some great video footage (I see a lot of similarities in style and specific techniques to the Moo Sul Kwan hapkido I train in).
And you make some valid points.
But that footage is a demonstration — and a great one at that. They aren't doing 50, 60, 100 falls in a row in that demo.
And remember that: to throw well, you must get repetition. Thousands of reps just like any technique.
For example:
A good mat is a good tool that, when combined with good falling skills, ensures your partner can fall for those repetitions without injuries.
And you make some valid points.
But that footage is a demonstration — and a great one at that. They aren't doing 50, 60, 100 falls in a row in that demo.
And remember that: to throw well, you must get repetition. Thousands of reps just like any technique.
For example:
A good mat is a good tool that, when combined with good falling skills, ensures your partner can fall for those repetitions without injuries.
Last edited by a moderator:
