Hapkido and Jujitsu

[Xue Sheng]

I was wondering what the differences were between Hapkido and Japanese Jujitsu.

I use to train Jujutsu (a long long long long time ago) and I am considering a return to it, but I happened to find a Hapkido school near me and watched a class the other day. So far the only major difference I saw was an exercise that looked more like a ramped up version of Wing Chun Chi Sau (sticking hands). However I do not think watching a one-hour class can really give me insight into the differences, if in fact there are any beyond Hapkido being Korean and Jujitsu being Japanese.

So what are the differences, if in fact there are any?

EDIT:
I just found this thread, after posting the above.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35333

But any additional information would be appreciated

Thanks - XS

 

[KOROHO]

On the surface, they look the same. Both can be excellent self defense.

Hapkido is a blend of Aikido and Tae Kwon Do. With that you get the throws and jointlocks of Aikido and the powerful kicks of TKD.

The one thing that I do not like about Hapkido that many schools teach is the fancy acrobatic things. They are not practical for the street. It makes great exercise and is fun to do and watch. But if you are wnting to focus mainly on self defense watch a Hapkido class and talk to the instructor about what you will be learning.

I'm not just knocking Hapkido. I think it will depend on the branch of Hapkido and who is teaching. The same can be said for Jujutsu. Pick your teacher carefully.

 

[Paul B]

On the surface, they look the same. Both can be excellent self defense.

Hapkido is a blend of Aikido and Tae Kwon Do. With that you get the throws and jointlocks of Aikido and the powerful kicks of TKD.

The one thing that I do not like about Hapkido that many schools teach is the fancy acrobatic things. They are not practical for the street. It makes great exercise and is fun to do and watch. But if you are wnting to focus mainly on self defense watch a Hapkido class and talk to the instructor about what you will be learning.

I'm not just knocking Hapkido. I think it will depend on the branch of Hapkido and who is teaching. The same can be said for Jujutsu. Pick your teacher carefully.

Hapkido is most assuredly *not* a blend of Aikido and Tae Kwon Do. I can see how one could say that certain Hapkido styles have an Aikido influence..a la GM Myung Jae Nim's Aiki inspired Hankido,but to paint all of Hapkido with that brush is a grievous error.

If oral history is to be believed,Hapkido is a direct descendant of Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu..so we have the same genetics as Aikido,but we're focused quite a bit more on the practical "breaking things" side and less on the "philosophical and harmonious" side.

Now..I'll be the first to admit that some demo teams are flashy and what they show is meant for just that..show. However,one should not confuse the "demo" portion with what is actually contained in the curriculum. Which is probably why we don't have a demo team..:uhyeah:

The Tae Kwon Do part I don't even want to get into,different kicking styles,etc...done to death. Suffice it to say that the absolute best way to figure out the difference is to go see and feel for yourself. Writing about it and actually feeling it are two very different things.

 

[howard]

I'm not just knocking Hapkido...

Perhaps not intentionally, but you're not doing anybody a service by posting such misleading stuff.

Paul, excellent response... as you say, Hapkido is decidedly not a blend of Aikido and TKD. Also, your quick summary of Hapkido history is right on the money and faithful to the truth as we know it today.

Fancy demonstrations are far from the norm in Hapkido. There are Hapkido schools that teach straightforward, no-nonsense self defense techniques. Hapkido was never intended to be a visually impressive martial art. As the head of our kwan in Korea says, 'My Hapkido not beautiful. My Hapkido not Hollywood."

XS, if you trained in a traditional style of Japanese Jujutsu, you will find a lot of similarities between that and traditional Hapkido. Most Hapkido schools will have a much greater emphasis on kicking than Jujutsu, but there are a few of us who have stuck to the aiki-based art that Choi Young Sool originally taught (whatever it might have been). Both approaches are valid. The degree of emphasis on kicking just depends on the particular kwan you happen to run across.

Why not check out the school and see what you think. At the end of the day, that's what it comes down to, right?

Good luck to you.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I did check out the Hapkido School, I was rather impressed and that is what leads to this post. I did see any flashy or stylized movements; however they did have the Chi Sau on steroids stuff, which was different form jujitsu. And now that you mention it, I did notice that it was a bit stronger on kicking than my Jujitsu class was. They seemed to be as strong on throws, but I did not see as much emphasis on joint locking, but that could also just be the class I wandered into. They may equally as strong on it, just not that day.

I am going to have to check out the Jujitsu school that I recently found near me as well. I am currently no where near the physical condition I would need to go and do hard training, but I am working hard to get there. I was just looking at Jujitsu or Judo and possibly Aikido (but there is an extreme lack of good aikido schools near me). But then I just happened to come across a sign that said Hapkido so I wandered in and watched a class. Now am also going to have to seriously consider Hapkido.

Thanks

 

[Paul B]

I did check out the Hapkido School, I was rather impressed and that is what leads to this post. I did see any flashy or stylized movements; however they did have the Chi Sau on steroids stuff

Hi Xue,

About the Chi Sau excercise..it sounds a lot like the joint locking flow drills we do in class..it can get pretty fast and nasty in a hurry,no? :lol: The way we practice flow drills is with PP thrown in for an added bonus..you'll just see a flurry of movement and then the next second someone's tapping like crazy..so much fun.

If you have any more questions at all about Hapkido,please don't hesitate to ask.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hi Xue,

About the Chi Sau excercise..it sounds a lot like the joint locking flow drills we do in class..it can get pretty fast and nasty in a hurry,no? :lol: The way we practice flow drills is with PP thrown in for an added bonus..you'll just see a flurry of movement and then the next second someone's tapping like crazy..so much fun.

If you have any more questions at all about Hapkido,please don't hesitate to ask.

Thanks.

I have to admit, it did look like fun.... painful.... but fun

And I see I had a type-o in my previous post.

CORRECTION:
"I didn't see any flashy or stylized movements;"

 

[KOROHO]

Some of the additional points about Hapkido are quite accurate.
But it most assureadly is a blend of Tae Kwon Do and Aikido.
The story of the founder training in Daito Ryu is just that - a story.

Of course HKD is based on the original 1950's era TKD and it has eveolved on it's own. So of course it does not look like today's TKD.

If you did not see much joint locking, probably they just didn't cover it in this one class.

See if you can try the class on a trial basis - for a month or so - and see more of it.

 

[shesulsa]

Some of the additional points about Hapkido are quite accurate.
But it most assureadly is a blend of Tae Kwon Do and Aikido.
The story of the founder training in Daito Ryu is just that - a story.

Of course HKD is based on the original 1950's era TKD and it has eveolved on it's own. So of course it does not look like today's TKD.

If you did not see much joint locking, probably they just didn't cover it in this one class.

See if you can try the class on a trial basis - for a month or so - and see more of it.

I'm curious - where exactly did you glean that HKD was based on TKD? Also your statement that the founder training in Daito Ryu being a story - I'd like to see the origin of that. Point me to a source, please? Thanks.

 

[howard]

Hi Shesulsa,

Hapkido is not based on TKD or Aikido. The original art that Choi brought back from Japan is based on some sophisticated aiki-based Jujutsu system. Choi himself always maintained that he had spent his time in Japan studying Daito Ryu under Sokaku Takeda, but this has never been proven (or disproven, for that matter). It remains oral history.

I have never seen any evidence that Choi studied TKD or any of the material from the Korean kwans that united to form TKD in the early 50s. In fact, I have never seen any reliable evidence that Choi ever studied any Korean martial art after his return from Japan. He maintained that he taught the system that he had learned in Japan, and that he taught it faithfully, in order to honor his teacher.

I can say from direct personal experience in both arts that Choi's Hapkido and Daito Ryu have many similarities, especially at the advanced level of technique. At the same time, there are significant differences that must be explained for the sake of the historical record. Some of the most basic differences are in the oragnization and presentation of the formal curricula in the two arts.

What is not in doubt is that Choi was a very accomplished martial artist when he repatriated to Korea after WW2.

The kicking repertoire that characterizes many Hapkido kwans today was added primarily by DJN Ji Han Jae. Choi taught roughly ten basic kicks, almost all of them to targets below the waist. If you visit the Jungkikwan website (www.jungkikwan.com), you'll find a section with the ten basic kicks that Choi taught the head of the Jungkikwan, GM Lim Hyun Soo.

DJN Ji learned kicking from other Koreans after spending three years under Choi, who taught him what DJN Ji refers to as "Yawara" (essentially, the Jujutsu base of Choi's original art). However, the kicking techniques that DJN Ji added to Hapkido do not come from TKD. DJN Ji himself can confirm this, as can any of his direct students.

If you see a pre-Ji style of Hapkido, like Jungki Hapkido, you will see very little resemblance to modern Aikido. If we assume that Choi's story is accurate for the sake of this discussion, then Aikido and the original style of Hapkido come from the same source (Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu). However, they have developed independently of each other since their respective foundings, with the exception of Myung Jae Nam's efforts to align his Hapkido with Aikido (I believe I'm stating last part this correctly).

There is anectodal evidence that Choi and Aikido founder Morihei Ueshiba knew each other in Japan, and that Choi communicated with Ueshiba's son at least once from Korea, but again, no conclusive proof, and a lot of skepticism among many JMA people.

There has been word that Chois' daughter is going to publish a volume of memoirs that will contain information about Takeda and her father, including information about Choi's training under, and his relationship with, Takeda. To my knowledge, this memoir has not yet been published. we can only hope that if and when it is, it will be translated into English.

If you'd like to see some lengthy and sometimes heated discussions of Hapkido's putative Daito Ryu roots, you can visit the Aikido Journal, e-budo and Budoseek forums. All three have extensive discussions of this topic, with contributions by many knowledgeable people. The Aikido Journal material in particular is generally well presented and contains a fair amount of very good historical research done by Stanley Pranin, the forum's owner.

Hope this helps... Regards, Howard

 

[Xue Sheng]

shesulsa

I also ound this about Hapkido

http://www.answers.com/topic/hapkido

Choi, Yong Sul's training in the martial arts is a subject of contention. It is known that Choi was sent to Japan as a young boy and returned to Korea with techniques which are characteristic of Daito-ryu, a forerunner of Aikido. Some claim that whilst in Japan Choi became the adopted son of the patriarch of Daito-ryu Aikijutsu, Sokaku Takeda. However Tokimune Sokaku, Takeda Sokaku's son, states that the records of Daito-ryu do not record Choi as a student of Daito-ryu. Except for claims made by Choi himself there is as yet no paper evidence to show that Choi was the adopted son of Sokaku Takeda or that he ever studied Daito-ryu.

The debate over Choi, Yong Sul's potential omission from the records and the ensuing debate over Hapkido's origins may be the result of tensions between Koreans and the Japanese, partly a result of Japanese involvement in the History of Korea. Whilst some commentators claim Hapkido has a Japanese lineage, others state that its origins lie more with indigenous Korean martial arts.

Choi, Yong Sul's first student, and the man who helped him develop the art of Hapkido was Suh, Bok Sup. Some of Choi's other respected senior students are: Bong Soo Han; Kim, Chong S.; Kim, Yong W.; Kim, Yong J.; Lee, Park; Jung H.; Joo, Bang; Park, Nam Sun; Seo, In Sun; Son, Duk Hyun; Yum, Chong H.; and most notably, Ji Han Jae.

 

[howard]

It is safe to say that speculation that Choi was Takeda's adopted son is inaccurate.

That story seems to have arisen from a 1982 interview that Choi did during his only visit to the US. The translation of that interview into English is suspect. The original tape of the interview is not currently available for translation by an objective source.

Similarly, the story sometimes attributed to Choi that Takeda committed seppuku seems to come from that interview. That is definitely inaccurate. Takeda died of natural causes in 1943.

It is probably accurate to say that DJN Ji is Choi's most notable student. However, it should be added that DJN Ji added several things to modern Hapkido that were absent from Choi's art, most notably additionally kicking techniques and meditation. So, Sin Moo Hapkido is quite different from Choi's original art, even though it does contain the Yawara core that DJN Ji learned during his three years of training under Choi.

 

[shesulsa]

Great info, guys, thanks.

There have been many, many discussions on Hapkido origins in the Hapkido forum and I've read most of them.

I was just curious where Koroho gets his information as to it originating after TKD.

 

[Paul B]

Awesome stuff,Howard..you have summed it up nicely.:asian:

The only thing I *would* add is to look up some original video of Choi DJN,there's some out there,..you can clearly see what we're talking about.

 

[howard]

Thanks, Paul :asian:

If you go to the Jungkikwan link I posted above (www.junkgkikwan.com), you can find a grainy old video of Choi demonstrating techniques on the late Master Mike Wollmershauser. I think it's in the English section of the website under "Founder" or something similar.

Mstr Wollmershauser may have been the only Westerner ever to get on the mat with Choi in Korea, I'm not sure... I don't know of any others (anybody else know of any?). He is definitely the person who introduced GM Lim to the first Americans who trained under him, in the mid 90s.

There's another video on that website of Choi speaking at some kind of dinner or banquet. I have read a post on the Aikido Journal website by a guy who is reliable that says that Choi is lamenting the disharmony that was already present in Korea in the Hapkido world, and imploring the different kwans to unite. This was also at the fore of his thoughts during his only visit to the US. Apparently, he was pretty disappointed that his art had fragmented into so many factions.

I truly hope that one day somebody can unearth some evidence that gives us all a clearer idea of exactly what Choi did during all that time in Japan. Right now, it seems that the hope that his daughter will publish her memoirs (and that they'll be translated into English) is the most promising thing we have.

Take care, Howard

 

[Paul B]

I hear you,Howard.

Supposedly that video has been a source of controversy as well(big surprise there,eh?) due to the difficulty of translating Choi DJN's heavy accent.

It is my hope as well that someday we'll have all the evidence looked at by independent experts to put it all out in the open..for better or worse. I know that it probably won't change the way you and I train in the least..but it would just be good to know,yes?

 

[KOROHO]

I'm curious - where exactly did you glean that HKD was based on TKD? Also your statement that the founder training in Daito Ryu being a story - I'd like to see the origin of that. Point me to a source, please? Thanks.

If this person had trained in Daito Ryu under Takeda, his name would be in the registers now held by Kondo Sensei. He will likely never make them public, as keeping the names closely held is what helps prevent people from inventing lineages and connections to Daito Ryu. But it is common fairly common knowledge that this is one person who is not in the books.

People now claim that HKD is a combination of Daito Ryu and "tae kyon". But there is not even any evidence of there ever being an art of "tae kyon". If not Tae Kwon Do, perhaps he studied Shotokan like Gen. Choi, the founder of TKD. Either way, there certainly is no connection to Daito Ryu - if so, please provide documentation. Of course there is no "documentation" of him not training with Takeda, as some people have requested to see. But certainly there would some proof that he did.

Whether it be Tae Kwon Do, as so many believe, or some Japanese style of Karate, it certainly is not derived from an ancient Korean art.

That is not to say that HKD can not be effective self defense. It can be, if it's taught properly. It just has a fanicful, made up history.

 

[Paul B]

True enough that all we have is "oral history" for now. Whether or not the story ever pans out is yet to be seen.

What we are left with is a very effective MA that may superficially resemble some things but is in truth an entity that stands quite soundly on its' own principles and technique.

Oh..and TaeKyon is alive and well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3nmjKvOADo

 

[elder999]

I don't have a dog in this hunt at all, anymore, but here's the little I was able to find out when I was interested, that might be of interest to some of you.

Here’s part an interview Stanley Pranin did with Ueshiba’s son on the matter:

AikiNews: It is true that a Korean named “Choi” who founded ‘hapkido” studied Aikido or Daito-ryu?

Doshu:I don’t know what art it was but I understand that there was a young Korean of about 17 or 18 who participated in a seminar of Sokaku Takeda-sensei held in Ashikawa City in Hokkaido. It seems that he studied the art together with my father and would refer to him as his “senior”.

AikiNews: If that’s the case the art must have been Daito-ryu.

Doshu: I’ve heard that this man who studied Daito-ryu had some contact with my father after that. Then he returned to Korea and began teaching Daito-ryu on a modest scale. The art gradually became popular and many Koreans trained with him. Since aikido became popular in Japan he called his art ‘Hapkido’ (Written with the same Chinese characters as Aikido). Then the art split into many schools before anyone realized it. This is what my father told me. I once received a letter from this teacher after my father’s death.”
- Aiki News Magazine No. 77

Richard Kim once said that Choi studied with Yoshida Kotaro-and that Choi’s Japanese name was also Kotaro-though they were not related at all. This may contribute to the whole “adapted son” theme, though.

In any case, Choi was in Japan, and learned something there-before he called it hapkido, he called what he was teaching in Korea yawara, which is a lot like saying “jujutsu” in a very (even more?) generic way.

In the end, we’ll never know for sure: there are lots of reasons that Choi’s name might not appear on a register, even though he studied-nationalism, odd relationships-someone once suggested that he just “peeked in the door” and gleaned enough info that way, which would be waaay impressive, considering the product. All the players who could answer are dead, though-

 

[matt.m]

Hapkido is most assuredly *not* a blend of Aikido and Tae Kwon Do. I can see how one could say that certain Hapkido styles have an Aikido influence..a la GM Myung Jae Nim's Aiki inspired Hankido,but to paint all of Hapkido with that brush is a grievous error.

If oral history is to be believed,Hapkido is a direct descendant of Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu..so we have the same genetics as Aikido,but we're focused quite a bit more on the practical "breaking things" side and less on the "philosophical and harmonious" side.

Now..I'll be the first to admit that some demo teams are flashy and what they show is meant for just that..show. However,one should not confuse the "demo" portion with what is actually contained in the curriculum. Which is probably why we don't have a demo team..:uhyeah:

The Tae Kwon Do part I don't even want to get into,different kicking styles,etc...done to death. Suffice it to say that the absolute best way to figure out the difference is to go see and feel for yourself. Writing about it and actually feeling it are two very different things.

I am with Paul, to portray hapkido as a mixture of this and that is ridiculous. I have often said that in hapkido wrist and clothes techniques there is two different ways to do the same thing. The street way and the demo "Because I like my partner" way.

From what I have seen of Aikido, it is intended to be done in such the way as hapkido's "Because I like my partner" manner. Hapkido is graceful, yet brutally powerful.

Jujitsu, from my understanding, (Help me out Paul and correct me if I am wrong), is more of a ground fighting martial art. Hapkido is more of a standing art. Trust me Judo style randori and more extreme randori is there, however it is not what hapkido revolves around.