Hap Ki Do / Aiki Do

[zDom]

... and Aikido has more throws from my limited exposure to Hapkido so far. That said, take a look for things like "ude garame", "irimi nage", "shiho nage" and "irimi tsuki". I defy most people to walk away from one of those executed aggressively on hard ground.

Depends on the style of hapkido.

Moo Sul Kwan hapkido is known for its powerful, full-circle throwing — which is clearly due to the Yudo background of those who founded/passed on this style.

From Wikipedia (before the hapkido entry was vandalized to remove this important information):

Won Kwang-Wha, was one of the earliest students of Korean hapkido under the founder of the art Choi Yong Sul and Suh Bok Sub. He was a pioneer of the art opening one of the first schools for the art in Seoul, the Moo Sool Kwan.

...

Won Kwang-Wha also served as a personal secretary and body guard to Suh Bok-Sub's father, congressman Suh Dong-jin. Having first learned hapkido from Suh he later studied directly from Choi Yong-Sul. In 1962, when Kim Moo Hong opened up his Shin Moo-Hong dojang in Seoul he became one the instructors there. Shortly thereafter Won opened his own school the Moo Sool Kwan.

Being an older practitioner when he started his training, and having pragmatic reasons for studying the art, Won's Moo Sool Kwon emphasized what he believed constituted practical self defense techniques. Moo Sool Kwan emphasizes powerful and direct techniques and a greater emphasis on strength in responses rather than ki power. There is also a preference towards whole body throws than wrist centered joint locking throws.
Some of his notable students were Park Lee-Hyun, Kimm He-Young, Won Hyung-Dae

Park Lee-Hyun (better known as Lee H. Park) was the founder of the (American) Moo Sul Kwan in Cape Girardeau, Mo.

Suh Bok Sub and Lee H. Park were both Yudo black belts before beginning hapkido.

 

[Jose Garrido]

Just want to make one small point....There are no records that were kept by Sokaku Takeda that indicate that Hapkido is based on Daito-ryu. Although this is the historical root that Hapkido claims. Aikido does have records to back their claim as having Daito-ryu as there root as indicated in Sokaku takeda's records.

Jose Garrido

 

[matt.m]

Just want to make one small point....There are no records that were kept by Sokaku Takeda that indicate that Hapkido is based on Daito-ryu. Although this is the historical root that Hapkido claims. Aikido does have records to back their claim as having Daito-ryu as there root as indicated in Sokaku takeda's records.

Jose Garrido

Yes,

No record was kept indeed. However, it begs the question why a record would have been kept to begin with? Let's see, Japan was "Colonizing" Korea. "Reform" whatever you want to call forcible occupation. The Japanese thought of Koreans as "Less than a dog" for all intensive purposes and treated them horribly. I mean come on, what would come to mind if you heard "Russia is now 'Occupying' the United States." I suppose you would think good things were to come right? I suppose that "Imperialism" is a great thing.

I have seen many a youtube video concerning daito ryu aiki jiu jitsu, well there is no mistake of the similiarity between what I have seen and our MSK techniques. Oh and furthermore, there is no way Choi could have possibly shown up in Taegu out of the blue and known jiu jitsu. It just isn't fathomable.

I may have a judo certification from the USJA, etc. However, I have yet to find a yudo governing body. All of my back ground is korean when speaking of martial arts.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Just want to make one small point....There are no records that were kept by Sokaku Takeda that indicate that Hapkido is based on Daito-ryu. Although this is the historical root that Hapkido claims. Aikido does have records to back their claim as having Daito-ryu as there root as indicated in Sokaku takeda's records.

Jose Garrido

Yes,

No record was kept indeed. However, it begs the question why a record would have been kept to begin with? Let's see, Japan was "Colonizing" Korea. "Reform" whatever you want to call forcible occupation.

Matt and Jose are quite right. There is no documentation linking Choi Yong Sool to Takeda O'Sensei. Searches of the Takeda family archives reveal no record of him as a student. Assertions that he was Takeda's adopted son are unlikely. Some have speculated that he may have been a servant.

Generally, though, many agree that if Choi didn't learn Daito Ryu Aki Jitsu from Takeda, he certainly learned it nonetheless. The practice of Hapkido is pretty varied. One can find HKD schools where no striking or kicking is taught, which I believe is pretty close to how Choi taught it. Other schools are different. One also runs into schools that claim to teach Hapkido, but have simply added a few wrist twists to a curriculum of kicking and punching.

 

[zDom]

Just want to make one small point....There are no records that were kept by Sokaku Takeda that indicate that Hapkido is based on Daito-ryu. Although this is the historical root that Hapkido claims. Aikido does have records to back their claim as having Daito-ryu as there root as indicated in Sokaku takeda's records.

Jose Garrido

Yep, this is true. And DRAJJ practitioners never get tired of repeating this.

Let me ask you, though, Mr. Garrido (and I've always wanted to ask a DRAJJ practitioner this question): Do you or do you not see a "family resemblance" to DRAJJ in hapkido?

I know Choi being trained by Sokaku isn't documented, that there is absolutely NO proof. But what do you, personally, think?

Was Choi a martial art genius that watched, recalled and figured out how do do hundreds and hundreds of techniques that look remarkably like DRAJJ? If so, Choi did himself a disservice by claiming he was "taught" by Sokaku.

Did someone ELSE train him? If so, Choi did that person a disservice as he apparently did a great job of passing along a difficult martial art.

Or did Sokaku, because of racism or whatever reason, teach Choi but never document it? If so, Sokaku did himself a disservice by not taking credit a for remarkable and historically noteworthy artist.

The fact is, most westerners only recognize TWO of the long list of "important" martial artists supposedly taught by Sokaku: Ueshiba and Choi.

Personally I doubt that Choi ever had a certificate and that the "I lost it story" was fabricated. But I do NOT doubt that he was taught DRAJJ techniques over many, many years — probably by Sokaku, but perhaps not.

So DRAJJ is justified in continuing to point out that there is no documented connection between the two arts. A shame, in my opinion, because I see it as highly likely that hapkido will outlive DRAJJ. A day may come when DRAJJ is no longer trained by anyone and is only remembered due to the alleged connection to hapkido.

And, it follows, that without us bastard, unacknowledged hapkido'ists, Sokaku's name might very well be forgotten. As it is now, without hapkido I would have never have heard of him in the first place.

 

[Jose Garrido]

Daito-ryu will be rembered if anthing because of the wide spread teaching of Aikido.

But IMO only, eventhough there is also an Okinawan martial art that resembles DTR (the name escapes me now), that art did not come from DTR.

Choi may have been a martial genious gleaming principles and techniques from various arts. From what I have seen from the softer forms HKD if he did take Daito-ryu it was probably more the Jujutsu than the Aikijujutsu.

I will most definately admit to some similarities. But the roots cannot be proven.

I am also a longtime Nihon Goshin Aikido practitioner and the oral history of that arts also states that it came from DTR. But this also cannot be proven.

Both NGA and HKD are effective martial arts, so why try to trace it back to DTR? Let them stand on their own merits.

Jose Garrido

 

[zDom]

Both NGA and HKD are effective martial arts, so why try to trace it back to DTR? Let them stand on their own merits.

HKD does stand on its own merits, unsubstantiated origins notwithstanding.

But some folk (like me, for instance) like to know where things come from.

I won't tell those who ask me that HKD definitely came from DRAJJ, but it is my opinion that it is very likely that is where the "yawara" Choi taught came from.

But then it is also my opinion that Choi himself never actually taught "hapkido" — that it only became hapkido when his first-generation students mixed in all the other stuff (mostly the kicking, but other stuff as well).

We all gather what facts we can and form beliefs, hopefully reasonable beliefs, based on at least some conjecture.

As for Aikido being widespread — not so much in Southeast Missouri. This is hapkido country

 

[CDKJudoka]

I may have a judo certification from the USJA, etc. However, I have yet to find a yudo governing body. All of my back ground is korean when speaking of martial arts.

I thought USJA/JF recognise yudo and have it in their organisation, or at least recognise the rank.

*Card carrying USJA member here.*

 

[matt.m]

I thought USJA/JF recognise yudo and have it in their organisation, or at least recognise the rank.

*Card carrying USJA member here.*

I too am a card carrying member of USJA. Love the organization, I am just saddened to see them get into the trouble they have with USA Judo. I mean the fact that I wish there was a U.S. Yudo Association that was recognized for competition.

I am not 100 % sure of the details however USA Judo has set some kind of regulatory action against the USJA. I caught a snippet, but ya know the USJA is a great organization that was born out of the UFJA.

 

[matt.m]

I stand corrected. It is the Armed Forces Judo Association, AFJA not UFJA. I still have a membership card from being on the all marine team.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

There are many Aikido variants (OP has not stated which is available to him) While essentially, the ethos in Aikido is one primarily of defence, that in no way precludes its being 1). a "hard" style or 2). a art that uses strikes - I think, respectfully, that these are Youtube misconceptions often levelled at Aikido. In my own Aikikai style, which perhaps most closely mirrors the original teachings of Morihei Ueshiba, the intent of our defence is sought in tandem with the intent of not harming the opponent. But that is a philosophy. Were an Aikikai practitioner to disavow that philosophy she or he could torque out techniques to happily dislocate and fracture. Without wanting to create a contradiction, there can be as much "jutsu" in Ai-ki-do as in any other martial system.

That sums it up pretty well.

I find Hapkido to be essentially practical Aikido. By that, I mean Aikido without the intent of not harming one's attacker.

Daniel

 

[Ty Hatfield]

I feel and such that Hapkido, Aikido, and Kung Fu are all very hard to put into a style they are to me and my other brother in hapkido a philosophy.

 

[Ty Hatfield]

Here is a web site on History of Hapkido

http://modernhapkido.org/history.htm

here is a good site for explaining Aikido

http://vsa.vassar.edu/~aikido/aikidohistory.htm

 

[elder999]

Daito-ryu will be rembered if anthing because of the wide spread teaching of Aikido.

But IMO only, eventhough there is also an Okinawan martial art that resembles DTR (the name escapes me now), that art did not come from DTR.

Choi may have been a martial genious gleaming principles and techniques from various arts. From what I have seen from the softer forms HKD if he did take Daito-ryu it was probably more the Jujutsu than the Aikijujutsu.

I will most definately admit to some similarities. But the roots cannot be proven.

THen there's this little anecdote, part of an interview Stanley Pranin did with Ueshiba's son:

AikiNews: It is true that a Korean named “Choi” who founded ‘hapkido” studied Aikido or Daito-ryu?

Doshu:I don’t know what art it was but I understand that there was a young Korean of about 17 or 18 who participated in a seminar of Sokaku Takeda-sensei held in Ashikawa City in Hokkaido. It seems that he studied the art together with my father and would refer to him as his “senior”.

AikiNews: If that’s the case the art must have been Daito-ryu.

Doshu: I’ve heard that this man who studied Daito-ryu had some contact with my father after that. Then he returned to Korea and began teaching Daito-ryu on a modest scale. The art gradually became popular and many Koreans trained with him. Since aikido became popular in Japan he called his art ‘Hapkido’ (Written with the same Chinese characters as Aikido). Then the art split into many schools before anyone realized it. This is what my father told me. I once received a letter from this teacher after my father’s death.”

- Aiki News Magazine No. 77

Richard Kim once said that Choi studied with Yoshida Kotaro-and that Choi’s Japanese name was also Kotaro-though they were not related at all.

In any case, Choi was in Japan, and learned something there-before he called it hapkido, he called what he was teaching in Korea yawara, which is a lot like saying “jujutsu” in a very (even more?) generic way.

In the end, we’ll never know for sure: there are lots of reasons that Choi’s name might not appear on a register of diato-ryu students, even though he studied:nationalism, odd relationships-someone once suggested that he just “peeked in the door” and gleaned enough info that way, which would be waaay impressive, considering the product.

All the players who could answer definitively are dead, though.

 

[howard]

In any case, Choi was in Japan, and learned something there-before he called it hapkido, he called what he was teaching in Korea yawara, which is a lot like saying “jujutsu” in a very (even more?) generic way.

In the end, we’ll never know for sure: there are lots of reasons that Choi’s name might not appear on a register of diato-ryu students, even though he studied:nationalism, odd relationships-someone once suggested that he just “peeked in the door” and gleaned enough info that way, which would be waaay impressive, considering the product.

All the players who could answer definitively are dead, though.

That's an excellent summary of the purported connection between Daito-ryu and hapkido.

The suggestion that Choi could have learned what he did through observation only is simply impossible to believe. If you're experienced in any jujutsu-based art, and you observe the yawara that Choi taught his direct students (which can still be found in organizations like the Jungkikwan), you will know right away that Choi had lots of training in a sophisticated form of jujutsu that has plenty of principles and techniques in common with Daito-ryu.

There was word a few years ago that one of Choi's daughters was going to publish her memoirs; they were supposed to include photographs and comments from people who were his contemporaries in Japan that would have gone a long way toward proving that he trained in Daito-ryu. But, as far as I know, the memoirs have not yet been published (certainly not in English).