Hands alive

[bcbernam777]

I recently met up with a wing chun student from a certain school in my local area (nameless they shall be), now this individual has been studying over 4 years under the same school, we started of doing the Sui Lum Tao, then moved on to Chi Sau, he had no feet (i.e. stance), and no structure behind any of his techniques, he was tense, and unyielding in his defense and attack, this was the second time I had done Chi Sau with someone outside of Sifu's circle of students, and I was absolutly amazed that someone who has studied an art for that amount of time could have so little skill.....anyway that is an aside. The real purpose fo this thread is to highlight a point, during our interchange he asked me what I would do against a hook, Itold him to hit me, when he did I caught his arm with a fook Sau, you should have seen the look on his face, he said to me, "what was that?" I said "its a fook Sau" He had a blank look on his face, I then explained to him that in Wing Chun your techniques aren't fixed but are alive respondig where necassary, if my Fook Sau is needed I will use it, if my Bong Sau is needed I will use it. I find that there are not many students including some within Sifu's classes who seem to miss that.

Is this something that others have noticed? and what are your thoughts on thsi subject?

 

[ed-swckf]

I recently met up with a wing chun student from a certain school in my local area (nameless they shall be), now this individual has been studying over 4 years under the same school, we started of doing the Sui Lum Tao, then moved on to Chi Sau, he had no feet (i.e. stance), and no structure behind any of his techniques, he was tense, and unyielding in his defense and attack, this was the second time I had done Chi Sau with someone outside of Sifu's circle of students, and I was absolutly amazed that someone who has studied an art for that amount of time could have so little skill.....anyway that is an aside. The real purpose fo this thread is to highlight a point, during our interchange he asked me what I would do against a hook, Itold him to hit me, when he did I caught his arm with a fook Sau, you should have seen the look on his face, he said to me, "what was that?" I said "its a fook Sau" He had a blank look on his face, I then explained to him that in Wing Chun your techniques aren't fixed but are alive respondig where necassary, if my Fook Sau is needed I will use it, if my Bong Sau is needed I will use it. I find that there are not many students including some within Sifu's classes who seem to miss that.

Is this something that others have noticed? and what are your thoughts on thsi subject?

how did you use the fook sau against the hook, i'm intrigued.

 

[bcbernam777]

Perform a fook sau, now maintain the structure and swing it outwards using only the shoulder as the hinge to move it, you should still have the same fook sau structure outside the centreline

 

[ed-swckf]

Perform a fook sau, now maintain the structure and swing it outwards using only the shoulder as the hinge to move it, you should still have the same fook sau structure outside the centreline

so like an upturned tan sau, would you purposefully deploy that as a response to a hook or was that just what came up in the instant?

 

[dmax999]

Sad to say, I used to get upset when people on the internet claimed that WC was worthless. I knew different and couldn't understand why someone would think that. Then I started watching the clips posted as examples of bad WC, they had a point.

It seems that people with bad WC are more then willing to show off, tape themselves, post on the internet, etc. When I say bad, I mean really bad. Good WC guys are out there, just not bragging as much and so forth. WC also seems limited in MA tournaments as well, you can't really compete in forms competitions and expect to win. Light contact sparring rules are usually gimping you to the point of not bothering. So full contact is your only choice, and full contact sparring isn't for everyone. When I did WC, I never considered doing competitions at all, and I think most well run WC schools are the same. Maybe there are some tournaments suited to WC, but none I have heard about around my neck of the woods.

Seems the only people who realize how good WC is are those who are good at WC. Consider it a kung-fu "secret" that no one else wants to know about.

 

[bcbernam777]

so like an upturned tan sau, would you purposefully deploy that as a response to a hook or was that just what came up in the instant?

Thats what came up in that instant, becuse I ahve absorbed the principle of live hands I didn't have to think it was an instant reaction, as long as the structure is in place then it is a fook sau, the good thing about itis that it can easily be converted into a diagonal palm or a Tan Sau utilising the Lan Sau energy

 

[bcbernam777]

Sad to say, I used to get upset when people on the internet claimed that WC was worthless. I knew different and couldn't understand why someone would think that. Then I started watching the clips posted as examples of bad WC, they had a point.

It seems that people with bad WC are more then willing to show off, tape themselves, post on the internet, etc. When I say bad, I mean really bad. Good WC guys are out there, just not bragging as much and so forth. WC also seems limited in MA tournaments as well, you can't really compete in forms competitions and expect to win. Light contact sparring rules are usually gimping you to the point of not bothering. So full contact is your only choice, and full contact sparring isn't for everyone. When I did WC, I never considered doing competitions at all, and I think most well run WC schools are the same. Maybe there are some tournaments suited to WC, but none I have heard about around my neck of the woods.

Seems the only people who realize how good WC is are those who are good at WC. Consider it a kung-fu "secret" that no one else wants to know about.

i think part of the problem is that a lot of people doing Wing Chun cant see the moon beyond the pointing finger i.e. the woods for the trees, my belief is that many people look at Wing Chun from a technique orientated position rather than a principle based position, If a man understands the principle, he knows how to fish, but if he is focused on the techniques he relys on others to give hm the fish. Wing chun is a total absorbing of the principals that run the engine, it is only through absorbing the principles that we find our freedom within Wing Chun, as Sifu once said to me "dont think having no way which is a way, you must think to have a way which becomes no way"

 

[ed-swckf]

i think part of the problem is that a lot of people doing Wing Chun cant see the moon beyond the pointing finger i.e. the woods for the trees, my belief is that many people look at Wing Chun from a technique orientated position rather than a principle based position, If a man understands the principle, he knows how to fish, but if he is focused on the techniques he relys on others to give hm the fish. Wing chun is a total absorbing of the principals that run the engine, it is only through absorbing the principles that we find our freedom within Wing Chun, as Sifu once said to me "dont think having no way which is a way, you must think to have a way which becomes no way"

I love how you clarify an analogy by using another analogy!!

 

[ed-swckf]

Thats what came up in that instant, becuse I ahve absorbed the principle of live hands I didn't have to think it was an instant reaction, as long as the structure is in place then it is a fook sau, the good thing about itis that it can easily be converted into a diagonal palm or a Tan Sau utilising the Lan Sau energy

you'd turn fook sau into tan using the energy of a lan sau, We are talking about the same lan sau (bar arm) here right? If so please explain.

 

[bcbernam777]

you'd turn fook sau into tan using the energy of a lan sau, We are talking about the same lan sau (bar arm) here right? If so please explain.

Simple, the tan sau hand can be used but it is with the energy of a Lan sau. The focus of the energy in Wing Chun is not found in the hands, it is found in the shoulder, being the universal joint, the tan sau hand being the uptruned hand can be used with the Lan Sau energy, this is the basis of freedom in Wing chun, if it is easier think of it as an upside down lan sau.

 

[ed-swckf]

Simple, the tan sau hand can be used but it is with the energy of a Lan sau. The focus of the energy in Wing Chun is not found in the hands, it is found in the shoulder, being the universal joint, the tan sau hand being the uptruned hand can be used with the Lan Sau energy, this is the basis of freedom in Wing chun, if it is easier think of it as an upside down lan sau.

Why is that lan sau energy specifically though?

 

[bcbernam777]

Why is that lan sau energy specifically though?

Because of the direction of the energy, each technique in Wing Chun has its own diredction in which the energy flows, this is seen basicly in SLT but takes on new dimension in CK via the use of two way force.

 

[Solidman82]

I really wish I remembered how all the "Sau's" translated into english. I'm completely lost. Does anyone know where there's a list of the translations?

 

[ed-swckf]

I really wish I remembered how all the "Sau's" translated into english. I'm completely lost. Does anyone know where there's a list of the translations?

Just do a search for a wing chun glossary.

 

[ed-swckf]

Because of the direction of the energy, each technique in Wing Chun has its own diredction in which the energy flows, this is seen basicly in SLT but takes on new dimension in CK via the use of two way force.

Ok so what is the difference between tan sau energy and lan sau enregy?and when you can use one energy with different hand shapes what makes the energy native to one particular shape? Wing chun has a few different types of energy which are alomost completely interchangable between techniques, what type of energy are you talking about or is it a combination?

 

[arnisador]

Here are a couple of hits for Wing Chun glossary:
http://members.aol.com/sidaijoey/glossary.html (list)
http://home.vtmuseum.org/terminology/glossary.php (searchable)

 

[Solidman82]

Thank you arnis.

 

[bcbernam777]

Ok so what is the difference between tan sau energy and lan sau enregy?and when you can use one energy with different hand shapes what makes the energy native to one particular shape? Wing chun has a few different types of energy which are alomost completely interchangable between techniques, what type of energy are you talking about or is it a combination?

The type of energy employed is the same energy it is simply the direction of that energy by utilising the hinge, i.e. the shoulder. It is part of the two way energy, with hand having its own "expresion" of that energy, e.g. the tan sau energy is utilised differently along the hinge than the lan sau energy, or the fook sau energy is utilised differently again from the who sau energy.

 

[ed-swckf]

The type of energy employed is the same energy it is simply the direction of that energy by utilising the hinge, i.e. the shoulder. It is part of the two way energy, with hand having its own "expresion" of that energy, e.g. the tan sau energy is utilised differently along the hinge than the lan sau energy, or the fook sau energy is utilised differently again from the who sau energy.

Unfortunately i either don't understand exactly what you are saying or i disagree. Whilst i understand the structure of the shapes are different and thus will make different uses of ging feel different or be applied differently, i am of the opinion that all types of ging are interchangable and none is particularly native to one shape.

 

[bcbernam777]

Unfortunately i either don't understand exactly what you are saying or i disagree. Whilst i understand the structure of the shapes are different and thus will make different uses of ging feel different or be applied differently, i am of the opinion that all types of ging are interchangable and none is particularly native to one shape.

Actually we do agree you must have misundertood hwo i was coming across, all hands make use of the 2 way energy, but it is their expression (application that is different)