Though I will agree with you on the major awards that they seem to be doing a good job at really making it a Hall of Fame for Isshin Ryu!
Hall of Fame?
- Thread starter Nolerama
- Start date
Though I will agree with you on the major awards that they seem to be doing a good job at really making it a Hall of Fame for Isshin Ryu!
Thank you. I did a little quick research online. The IHOF corporation is owned by Sensei Tim McGhee, who is co-author of many of famous books and videos on Isshinryu with people like Masters Long and Mitchum, etc. It is a for-profit corporation. He clearly 'makes money' from Isshinryu in general - it is a business for him. I see that.
But I also see my own Sensei - not a proud or stupid man, not an egomaniac, he's very humble and without a doubt the 'real deal'. He has turned down many requests to 'award' degrees higher than his own to others, people in other disciplines, etc - he just doesn't go in for that. His lineage is clear and unquestionable - he's the real deal. So I have a bit of trouble just accepting that his HoF induction status is essentially 'fake'.
On balance, I believe this is the real deal. Yes, it's clearly a for-profit institution, as you said. I have no doubt Tim McGhee and whomever else is making bank on this. But the fact that they don't induct every Tom, Dick, and Tatsuo and have even declined to induct anyone in some years makes me think that induction into the IHOF means something - if nothing else, the recognition of one's peers for a lifetime of accomplishment.
My criteria for "sham"
- Must be present to receive award
- Asks you to provide an alternate if you can't make it
- Charges you.
If you are honoring someone, honor them. A certificate doesn't cost that much to issue.
I have no problem with -optional- charges for rings, plaques, and a banquet.
I have a problem with mandatory fees.
I also have problems when they induct people against their will. I know of several FMA masters who are in some HOF's, who have said repeatedly to them "stop using my name", yet are continually pushed as "members".
MartialTalk has a HOF. We rarely induct, and haven't charged a dime.
We also don't do a banquet, plaque, etc.
Maybe later, if I can find some corporate sponsors to pick up the tab.
- Must be present to receive award
- Asks you to provide an alternate if you can't make it
- Charges you.
If you are honoring someone, honor them. A certificate doesn't cost that much to issue.
I have no problem with -optional- charges for rings, plaques, and a banquet.
I have a problem with mandatory fees.
I also have problems when they induct people against their will. I know of several FMA masters who are in some HOF's, who have said repeatedly to them "stop using my name", yet are continually pushed as "members".
MartialTalk has a HOF. We rarely induct, and haven't charged a dime.
We also don't do a banquet, plaque, etc.
Maybe later, if I can find some corporate sponsors to pick up the tab.
Let me just say this, then I'll quit chewing on this bone (I have to go do laundry anyway). One of the things I have found that I like very much about MT is that it is non-judgmental. Even in some quasi-areas that I suspect it would be reasonable to be judgmental. I mean, I see some kids coming in here posting "What is the most powerful punch known to man?" or "What art should I join if I want to actually become invisible?" questions, and people are really gentle with them, instead of saying "Go away, poseur. Come back when your voice changes in a few years." I think it is really cool that people can hang fire on that kind of stuff so well - something to be proud of.
So it was kind of a shock to me to see this all-inclusive condemnation. Ir frankly felt like a kick in the gut - YOUR SENSEI IS A FRAUD kind of thing. I mean, you guys don't even slam the kiddies who want to jump backwards into trees, so WTF do you get off putting down my art's HoF? We think it is legitimate, WTF are you to say it isn't?
Anyway, I'll get over it. And I have to do laundry. Peace to everyone. Sorry you all feel this way.
Gordon Nore
Senior Master
Bill,
Just caught your post this morning. I'm make no insinuation about your teacher's qualifications or character and none should be inferred. I was speaking broadly to a common scam used by some artists to aggrandize themselves and hook in members.
And, yes, I once was subjected to some attacks on my teacher in another on-line forum based on some photos on our club website, so I understand why you are upset, and I apologize for anything that may have been construed as a similar attack.
Bill,
I'm not saying that all of these guys are frauds. I know a number of "can't debate, he's legit" types who are in some of these. In some cases on purpose. One person I spoke to about this said basically, that he goes to these events, accepts the paper, to network with the other people there, get introductions, and what not. The paper he puts in a filing cabinet and none of it's mentioned in the school or on his website.
So, being in these isn't a sign of a fraud. It's what they do with it, and if they have to page down a few times when listing all their 10th dans that indicates questionableness to me.
I don't point at any 1 org and say "those guys are frauds". I look at the requirements, and in my opinion, none of the groups that approached me, are quality, because those ones were all about the $$.
I'm not saying that all of these guys are frauds. I know a number of "can't debate, he's legit" types who are in some of these. In some cases on purpose. One person I spoke to about this said basically, that he goes to these events, accepts the paper, to network with the other people there, get introductions, and what not. The paper he puts in a filing cabinet and none of it's mentioned in the school or on his website.
So, being in these isn't a sign of a fraud. It's what they do with it, and if they have to page down a few times when listing all their 10th dans that indicates questionableness to me.
I don't point at any 1 org and say "those guys are frauds". I look at the requirements, and in my opinion, none of the groups that approached me, are quality, because those ones were all about the $$.
Isshin-ryu Hall of Fame: The first inductee was the art's late founder (in 1980). The second was Harold Long (in 1981), who had founded the Isshin-Ryu Hall of Fame in 1980. (See here.) Harold Long was certainly deserving of induction, but...he founded it (actually, as part of his new org. a few years earlier--in fact, the year I began studying Isshin-ryu--then disassociated from the org. so it would be broader), and then was the first inductee after the founder and ahead of people like Angi Uezu, Kichiro Shimabuku, etc. Nope, nothing suspicious there.
IĀll admit that I have a Hall Of Fame plaque hanging t home in my room. I was inducted in one of the halls of fame many years ago. NO, I did not nominate myself nor did I pay for the award, I was nominated and I presume it was paid for by a group of people who knew me but where not even in the organization I belonged to.
The award means much to me not because it says I am a hall of fame member but because it says to me that my achievements in the arts and my being myself in general meant enough to others that they felt they should find a way of honoring me.
As for hall of fames in general. Well I sat at one a long time ago and saw 15 people from the same school inducted for various things. Some of those inducted where age 10, 2 green belts, and one white belt with 6 months of training. So you can make your own judgment as to how much the award really means the recipient really has contributed to the world of martial arts.
I have also been asked to be on some of those soke boards. Now I would have been saying that I thought Mr. so and so was qualified to be the head of his own system and had the knowledge to created something brand new, if I had accepted the position. I decilined by telling the head of the organization and soke committee that I most likely would disqualify all of those applying as a "want-a- be" who just could not stand not being the top person in any organization and had little talent but to blow their own horn.
The award means much to me not because it says I am a hall of fame member but because it says to me that my achievements in the arts and my being myself in general meant enough to others that they felt they should find a way of honoring me.
As for hall of fames in general. Well I sat at one a long time ago and saw 15 people from the same school inducted for various things. Some of those inducted where age 10, 2 green belts, and one white belt with 6 months of training. So you can make your own judgment as to how much the award really means the recipient really has contributed to the world of martial arts.
I have also been asked to be on some of those soke boards. Now I would have been saying that I thought Mr. so and so was qualified to be the head of his own system and had the knowledge to created something brand new, if I had accepted the position. I decilined by telling the head of the organization and soke committee that I most likely would disqualify all of those applying as a "want-a- be" who just could not stand not being the top person in any organization and had little talent but to blow their own horn.
Just to try and illustrate an example or a difference:
Here is an example of an award that was completely unknown to the award recipient. He received a plaque from my organization on his last seminar stop in the US for 2008 for being the "Filipino Martial Artist of the Year" and a beautiful bowie knife and cowboy hat. The Grand Tuhon had no idea that this would be presented or that we would recognize his life time achievements which are so very impressive. (it was a total surprise
) The award required no cost or was it a bribe or anything like that. It was an award of honor to a recipient who was deserving of it.
Now all awards have different meanings to different people. One Hall of Fame could have great meaning while another may not.
What is most important really is your personal interaction with someone and how they treat you and other people!I would advise you to base your judgement off that and not whether somoene has a Hall of Fame or another similar type award!
Here is an example of an award that was completely unknown to the award recipient. He received a plaque from my organization on his last seminar stop in the US for 2008 for being the "Filipino Martial Artist of the Year" and a beautiful bowie knife and cowboy hat. The Grand Tuhon had no idea that this would be presented or that we would recognize his life time achievements which are so very impressive. (it was a total surprise
Now all awards have different meanings to different people. One Hall of Fame could have great meaning while another may not.
What is most important really is your personal interaction with someone and how they treat you and other people!I would advise you to base your judgement off that and not whether somoene has a Hall of Fame or another similar type award!
Attachments
There are certainly good people in Halls of Fame! Some believed in the org., some were inducted unknowingly or didn't really investigate, some are too polite to say No, some are just going with the flow. I don't doubt that someone could be doing a legitimate job with one of these, but pick a HoF at random and it'll likely be a diploma mill type of job.
One note: I have never said that any and all Halls of Fame are questionable; I provided some of the criteria I use. Many are money making deals in one way or another. Others are credential mill devices. A few martial arts Halls of Fame are legitimate ways to honor someone.
I'm having a difficult time figuring what there is to argue about here. To me, the only thing that counts is whether the teacher knows their stuff and can teach it.
Let's suppose Renshi Tim comes from a wonderful lineage, teaches true to it and has made many students happier and better. Does the presence of 1 or 2 questionable "Hall of Fame" certificates on his wall suddenly transform him into a bad teacher? Of course not. Similarly, Renshi Tim may have all sorts of certificates from organizations I respect..... but none of those would excuse grave defects in teaching style or character.
So, in the end, who cares about these things?
Let's suppose Renshi Tim comes from a wonderful lineage, teaches true to it and has made many students happier and better. Does the presence of 1 or 2 questionable "Hall of Fame" certificates on his wall suddenly transform him into a bad teacher? Of course not. Similarly, Renshi Tim may have all sorts of certificates from organizations I respect..... but none of those would excuse grave defects in teaching style or character.
So, in the end, who cares about these things?
Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
I'm sure there are Halls of Fame that are well intentioned with very legitimate members. In fact, while BLACK BELT's may have slipped in prestige over the years, it was solid for many years. Still, if you call back to ask who nominated you and you get an automated response ("to find how you qualified, please press#3"), this may be a clue. If they also offer you a doctorate degree in martial arts for an additional fee, this may also raise some questions. (Am I sounding too much like Jeff Foxworthy?)
Ronin74
Brown Belt
THANK YOU!
When I first joined MT I posted this thread regarding my experience with a past teacher. By reputation alone, this guy sounded like the person to train with, and when I did start training, there was no disappointment. However, maybe after 5+ years of training with him, these "accolades" came into the picture- martial art halls of fame, awards of recognition, testimonials of authenticty. I think the only certificate that ever really garnered my interest was the one given to him by his master stating that he had earned his rank. The rest was all needless fluff to me, but it became a big issue for him and a few other students to the point that they had to let others know about it.
In my opinion, I think the only credentials that really matter, that can truly state an instructor's ablitiy to teach is on how good his/her students turn out as martial artists.
HeisaaReborn
Orange Belt
I personally also include "banquet" as an optional fee. If you don't need to be there in person to accept your award as was the last HOF that I was able to attend with my husband then the banquet is optional. The association involved runs a great tournament circuit all year with trophies and only charges a $35 entrance fee which barely covers the expenses of the tournament once you factor in the liability insurance. So hey you can't really expect an association that does tournaments that barely profit and clinics that are free to throw a free banquet and invite everyone.
What other reason is there for a hall of fame? Aside from any income garnerd by those who establish it, it doesn't do anything for its members aside from pad their resume. Any fame that they were going to have from their efforts is attained outside of any hof induction.
NFL players who are inducted were famous because of their performance on the field. The only time anyone cares about their induction when the player make an apperance. Then the advertisers will say, 'running back for (insert team name) who ran (numerical value) yards in (date) and hall of famer, (insert name of player) appearing tonight only!'
Yes, it is a resume pad. An inductee is typically nominated by a group of peers, and the inductee's admission is actually more beneficial to the hall than it is to the individual. After all, an HOF with no members is pretty pathetic. Even BB's hall of fame is designed to increase circulation (wonder if my fave' figher made it in. I'll buy the issue).
An hof is like a black belt. Meaningful to the holder, those who promoted the holder, those who attend the holder's school, and to the holder's friends and family, but meaningless to anyone else. If the holder move to another part of the country, the dojo there isn't interested in the holder's rank, but in whether or not the holder knows what they're doing and can execute the techniques.
Daniel
The Last Legionary
All warfare is based on deception.<br><b>nemo malu
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
If you need the award, then you don't deserve the award.
If you deserve the award, then you don't need the award.
If you deserve the award, then you don't need the award.
JadeDragon3
Black Belt
I was nominated into a hall of fame and didn't even know it until they mailed me a letter and said that if I wanted to come to the banquet dinner to find out if I won I needed to send $100. I figured it was a scam. I live in Ky and this was the Florida Brotherhood Martial Arts Hall of Fame. Why is Florida nominating someone from Ky. I was up for the Sifu of the year award. Go figure. 
Although it might have been a scam and I don't know who they are or who nominated me, I use it to pad my resume'
Although it might have been a scam and I don't know who they are or who nominated me, I use it to pad my resume'
