Haidong Gumdo

[Xue Sheng]

I asked this in the Korean MA forum but since it is a sword art I thought maybe I should ask it here.

What is Haidong Gumdo?

I like to keep track of the MA schools in my area and a lot of (surprising) new ones have popped up and one teaches Haidong Gumdo and I do not know what that is exactly beyond a Korean Sword art.

 

[Tensei85]

Wikipedia has a nice article on this topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haidong_Gumdo

 

[Ninjamom]

The best single internet resource is Anthony Boyd's forum, dedicated specifically to all forms of this art.

http://www.hdgdforum.com/phpbb/

http://www.hdgdforum.com/phpbb.htm

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thanks, I read through everything and it was very informative but then I had a :duh: moment followed by :idea: ....

I went to YouTube for a look. I have not trained a lot of sword outside of CMA, the only other thing I tried was Kendo and that was only for about a month but from my limited experience with such styles Haidong Gumdo does look very Japanese to me.

 

[Sukerkin]

That last point is hardly a surprise, Xue ... but let's not open that particular fumerole again .

 

[Xue Sheng]

That last point is hardly a surprise, Xue ... but let's not open that particular fumerole again .

sorry, I did not realize that was a problem

 

[Ken Morgan]

Screw it....
Ask yourself some questions
Is TKD really Korean? Looks like.....
Is Kumdo really Korean? Looks like.....
Hence, is Haidong Gumdo really Korean? Looks like.....

 

[Xue Sheng]

Whoa there big guy.... Be gentle with me, I am a CMA guy that use to be a TKD guy many many years ago (pre-Olympic) and I am not aware of the issues that can arise from questions or making statements in KMA. Back when I did TKD I was to busy doing TKD to care and like I said it was a long long time ago

I am not saying it is not Korean I said it looked like Japanese Sword style and I can also say things like I have seen Wing Chun in FMA and I have seen Qinna in Jujutsu and Taiji in Aikido as well. But yet all of the styles are what they are and where they are from be it China, Japan, Philippines or anywhere else. I have been at this stuff for over 30 years and I see a lot of similarities between styles

I am not surprised a similarities in various styles form various countries because if Newton and Leibniz can come up with Calculus at roughly the same time independently of each other it is not surprising at all that a guy in Japan figures out a way to kill a guy with a sword and that looks a lot like what a guy in Korea figured out.

I am not looking to start a fight or a flame war I had a legitimate question since I had never heard of Haidong Gumdo before and it appears in my area.

 

[Ken Morgan]

:angel:

 

[Ninjamom]

Youtube is a great place to find the good-the-bad-and-the-ugly of just about anything. For viewing representative vids of the forms of haidong gumdo, may I humbly suggest:
Ssang su gumbup 2 & 4: two forms from about the yellow/green belt level. These forms emphasize changing directions against multiple attackers (where the attackers are kind enough to remain evenly-spaced).
Yedo 2 & 3: Two black belt forms in a faster pace, as in multiple targets at closer/varying range.

Haidong gumdo was derived from Chinese sources, not Japanese. Compare, for instance, the basic stances in the obscure, cult-like Korean martial art of Gicheon Mun, which is itself derived from Northern Mantis forms. (Stances may be seen here; click on any thumbnail to see close-ups and more info on the individual stances). The stances used in haidong gumdo are identical; the names used for all but one of the stances are also identically the same. If you watch the Youtube video here, you can see much more clearly the Chinese roots of Gicheon - the practice of the basic stances by slowly switching from side to side may be familiar to some practitioners of Chinese arts (past the long opening bow). Note also that the gicheon practitioner wears the traditional Korean 'hanbok', (not the Japanese gi usually seen in TKD or even some haidong gumdo classes), and the only belt is the same black sash that all practitioners wear (i.e., it is not a symbol of rank). More views of gicheon may be seen here and here.

I took time talking about gicheon because it is well documented that both of the founders of haidong gumdo studied (about 20 years) and were teachers of the art. (Given the art's secretive nature, becoming an acknowledged instructor is no small accomplishment.) The current leadership of the Gicheon Mun organization readily acknowledges the relationshiop between haidong gumdo and gicheon, as does some of the leadership of the main haidong gumdo federation. At the same time, there is no record of either of the founders of haidong gumdo (or any of their first-generation students, as far as I could find) ever studying kendo, kumdo, or kenjitsu.

Xue, I put more information in response to your original question in the thread you started in the Korean Martial Arts subforum, here.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Youtube is a great place to find the good-the-bad-and-the-ugly of just about anything. For viewing representative vids of the forms of haidong gumdo, may I humbly suggest:
Ssang su gumbup 2 & 4: two forms from about the yellow/green belt level. These forms emphasize changing directions against multiple attackers (where the attackers are kind enough to remain evenly-spaced).
Yedo 2 & 3: Two black belt forms in a faster pace, as in multiple targets at closer/varying range.

Haidong gumdo was derived from Chinese sources, not Japanese. Compare, for instance, the basic stances in the obscure, cult-like Korean martial art of Gicheon Mun, which is itself derived from Northern Mantis forms. (Stances may be seen here; click on any thumbnail to see close-ups and more info on the individual stances). The stances used in haidong gumdo are identical; the names used for all but one of the stances are also identically the same. If you watch the Youtube video here, you can see much more clearly the Chinese roots of Gicheon - the practice of the basic stances by slowly switching from side to side may be familiar to some practitioners of Chinese arts (past the long opening bow). Note also that the gicheon practitioner wears the traditional Korean 'hanbok', (not the Japanese gi usually seen in TKD or even some haidong gumdo classes), and the only belt is the same black sash that all practitioners wear (i.e., it is not a symbol of rank). More views of gicheon may be seen here and here.

I took time talking about gicheon because it is well documented that both of the founders of haidong gumdo studied (about 20 years) and were teachers of the art. (Given the art's secretive nature, becoming an acknowledged instructor is no small accomplishment.) The current leadership of the Gicheon Mun organization readily acknowledges the relationshiop between haidong gumdo and gicheon, as does some of the leadership of the main haidong gumdo federation. At the same time, there is no record of either of the founders of haidong gumdo (or any of their first-generation students, as far as I could find) ever studying kendo, kumdo, or kenjitsu.

Xue, I put more information in response to your original question in the thread you started in the Korean Martial Arts subforum, here.

That is very interesting and quite informative. And I read your the other response early and it to was very helpful as well.

thank you

 

[lklawson]

Whoa there big guy.... Be gentle with me, I am a CMA guy that use to be a TKD guy many many years ago (pre-Olympic) and I am not aware of the issues that can arise from questions or making statements in KMA. Back when I did TKD I was to busy doing TKD to care and like I said it was a long long time ago

What Mr. Morgan is implying is that a large number of people, mostly those NOT practicing Korean Martial Arts (KMA), believe that the vast majority of KMA are, indeed, Japanese in origin.

The commonly held logic among those promoting this theory is that KMA's had largely disappeared due to the proximity of China and the ascendancy of Confusionism which places martial practice at a very low moral level. Alternately (again), there are those promoting this theory who accept that KMA did survive into the 20th Century, though somewhat fringe and out of the mainstream. Both, however, agree that the Japanese conquest of Korean spelled a low point for Korean culture. After the conquest the Japanese administrators in Korea spent a huge amount of effort to suppress and destroy Korean culture, supplanting it with Japanese culture. Large numbers of Korean books on history, philosophy, art, and general culture were destroyed. Artifacts of cultural behavior were banned and rules enacted to force Japanese culture onto the Koreans.

Promoters of the "KMAs are really Japanese Martial Arts (KMAs)" point out the well documented fact that this cultural purge extended to martial arts as well. All practice of KMA was outlawed and exponents of JMAs were imported and Dojos set up for the tutelage of JMAs.

This practice continued, essentially, unabated until the defeat of the Japanese in WWII.

Following WWII and the exit of Japan from Korea there was a groundswell of nationalistic sentiment and pride in Korea accompanied with the desire to excise all things Japanese. At this period we see a reinvigoration of KMA and the emergence of most of the recognized KMA organizations. The independent Kwans/Dojangs emerged, eventually to be joined into Tae Kwon Do by Gen. Choi, Gumdo, Hapkido, Tang Soo Do, etc. all began to be recognized on the Korean martial stage.

The problem is, that many of these arts are undeniably, ADMITTEDLY, influenced (at the minimum) by JMAs. Hapkido's founder, Choi, claimed that HKD is based largely from Aiki Ju Jitsu. Tang Soo Do's (TSD) founder, Hung Kee, claims to have completely ripped off JMA Hyung (Kata) and plugged them directly into his art. Gumdo uses Kendo armour, shinai, and rules. TKD standardizes on JMA style uniforms and rankings. You get the idea.

However, most of the emerging KMA's claim a non-Japanese origin. TKD and TSD claim combined Korean and Chinese origins, for instance. But, with very few exceptions (Tae Kyon, for instance), it all LOOKS so JMA. Add this together with the cultural genocide that Japan was attempting and the nationalistic (almost Jingoistic) Korean sentiments and it's easy to make at least a superficial case that most/all modern KMA's are really rebranded JMA's.

On the other side of the coin, those who reject the theory that KMA = JMA point out that Korea is a pretty big place when you get right down to it and that, despite their best efforts, the Japanese would not have been able to actually root out all native martial arts, particularly those in geographically remote areas, away from population and manufacturing centers. Further, they point out the quite natural tendency for exponents of banned arts to either "go underground" or simply flee the country, seeking asylum in some other nation, to return later, after the Japanese had finally left. They explain the Japanese imports, such as uniforms, rules, and ranking structure, as simply cherry-picking components which they like or seem to work well, adding them to the existing KMA systems without diluting the original arts.

This is the conflict in a nutshell. Naturally there is a lot more too it and lots of history, dates, and research on both sides in support of their theories (most of which I've forgotten now) but that's the basics.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thanks and allow me to repeat

I am not saying it is not Korean I said it looked like Japanese Sword style and I can also say things like I have seen Wing Chun in FMA and I have seen Qinna in Jujutsu and Taiji in Aikido as well. But yet all of the styles are what they are and where they are from be it China, Japan, Philippines or anywhere else. I have been at this stuff for over 30 years and I see a lot of similarities between styles

 

[lklawson]

I am not saying it is not Korean I said it looked like Japanese Sword style

To be fair, I honestly don't care one way or another if it is rebranded JMA. The internal politics and external marketing of KMA is their business and I'll largely leave it alone unless I'm feeling grumpy or argumentative. ;-)

Really all I was trying to do is frame the debate for folks who may not have heard that there was some question concerning the origin of modern KMAs.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Xue Sheng]

To be fair, I honestly don't care one way or another if it is rebranded JMA. The internal politics and external marketing of KMA is their business and I'll largely leave it alone unless I'm feeling grumpy or argumentative. ;-)

Really all I was trying to do is frame the debate for folks who may not have heard that there was some question concerning the origin of modern KMAs.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Please don't take me wrong, I do appreciate your previous post it is just the few times I have crossed in the KMA areas and asked a question I generally find I have stomp on an invisible tiger's tail without and I always get the feeling that I am about to be pounced on therefore I try my best to extricate myself from it as fast as possible.

 

[lklawson]

Please don't take me wrong, I do appreciate your previous post it is just the few times I have crossed in the KMA areas and asked a question I generally find I have stomp on an invisible tiger's tail without and I always get the feeling that I am about to be pounced on therefore I try my best to extricate myself from it as fast as possible.

Yes, that does happen. And you seem to be more polite than I, to be fair. Last time I was feeling grumpy/argumentative enough to have that fight (some years ago, in another forum) I didn't worry so much about treading on the tail of the cat. And, for some it seems, the cat has a very long tail. Maybe it's just that they're so used to defending that they are extra sensitive.

For the record, I've argued both sides of the, erm, "debate" from time to time (when I'm feeling grumpy/argumentative enough) and have practiced both KMA and JMA. Maybe that gives me license to stir the pot. ;-)

Anyway, I'm feeling pretty mellow this week. Had a good WMA club session last night. Worked Bartitsu, Lang/Vigny, Bowie, Cutlass, and had a Broadsword League match. (followed it up by borking my wife's XP box by running a Combofix scan on it and spend the next two hours unborking it) so, in general, I'm not feeling so grumpy at the moment. <g>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk