Guns

[MartialArtist]

Guns are responsible for murders just like how spoons are responsible for Rosie O'Donnel being fat.

:asian:

 

[lost_tortoise]

Philosophically, I think guns are for the weak. ooooo, am I going to catch it for that one!

In reality, however, I have a wife and son and I will do whatever it takes to preserve their lives and well-being......with impunity!

Therefore, although I do not own a firearm, I train with them as often as possible as I do with all objects that can be utilized for defense. In the course of my firearm training (instinctive, conventional and close range techniques) I have come to the conclusion that just about anyone could kill you with a gun, even accidentally! Where is the honor in that? Also, there is the remorse factor. Do you think that these wannabe gangsters shooting each other from their vehicles would be as stoic about taking life if they were more closely engaged with their victim? I can guarantee they would not be. Experiencing someone's life slipping through your hands changes you profoundly. Indeed, you either develop a deep distaste for it or go mad with the power of it. Talk with a veteran that's been engaged in CQC and taken someone's life....it leaves scars! The distance afforded you by a firearm can often buffer the profundity of such actions. That is what I mean by guns being tools of the weak.

:soapbox: :soapbox:

geoffrey

 

[A.R.K.]

A firearm is a tool with a purpose the same as a screw driver or hammer.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by lost_tortoise
Philosophically, I think guns are for the weak. ooooo, am I going to catch it for that one!

In reality, however, I have a wife and son and I will do whatever it takes to preserve their lives and well-being......with impunity!

Therefore, although I do not own a firearm, I train with them as often as possible as I do with all objects that can be utilized for defense. In the course of my firearm training (instinctive, conventional and close range techniques) I have come to the conclusion that just about anyone could kill you with a gun, even accidentally! Where is the honor in that? Also, there is the remorse factor. Do you think that these wannabe gangsters shooting each other from their vehicles would be as stoic about taking life if they were more closely engaged with their victim? I can guarantee they would not be. Experiencing someone's life slipping through your hands changes you profoundly. Indeed, you either develop a deep distaste for it or go mad with the power of it. Talk with a veteran that's been engaged in CQC and taken someone's life....it leaves scars! The distance afforded you by a firearm can often buffer the profundity of such actions. That is what I mean by guns being tools of the weak.

:soapbox: :soapbox:

geoffrey

Yeah, firearms are considered a "weak" weapon because it's not as physically demanding... Guns being "weak" isn't the problem. The criminals who use them have no sense of honor, and won't hesitate to kill you.

The difference between WAR and DEFENSE is very large. Some people develop such hard hearts that it doesn't matter who they kill. I'm sure you heard of the many people who all they wanted to do was to kill the krauts and kill the japs. However, with war, the thing that leaves scars is not due to just killing someone, but killing someone who hasn't really done anything wrong. War is where innocent people die, and yes, even soldiers are many times innocent in a way, just being used to solve political matters. I mean, it's two people just fighting for a cause and killing them because of the cause... Then there's the idea that your comrades are being slaughtered right in front of you. Compare a cop who has had to kill to save the life of an innocent man or a group of people, that would be more comparable on the street.

And you misunderstand the whole purpose of CCW. CCW is the last resort. When you do have to draw, you draw to shoot. You don't draw to frighten the enemy. And don't misunderstand the above comment. You don't draw and shoot right away, but when you have to resort to draw your weapon, your main objective isn't to frighten the opponent. It's to STOP the opponent. Stopping the opponent could mean just pointing the barrel at him (most of the time, they'll run) or to pull the trigger.

 

[KenpoDragon]

There is a saying, "Any fool can pull a trigger" , sorry guys but even though I personally like firearms, I don't like the fact that every idiot on the street has one. If all of you guys are such advocates for guns, then why study martial arts??? Why not just buy a gun, and if someone messes with you, just shoot the poor S.O.B??? The reason is, you can NEVER give someone their life back after you have taken it. Think about how many deaths are gun related. I didn't say murders, I said deaths, accidental, and intentional. A 5 year old kid blowing their head off because daddy didn't lock up his gun is in my opinion just as bad as the dad shooting the kid himself. If he didn't have the gun, his kid would still be alive. What about all the Drive-by's, there have been over 30 in my area of L.A in the last couple of months, MY COUSIN WAS ONE OF THE VICTIMS!!!!!! He had a wife and 2 kids.....sorry getting emotional, anyways what about them, how do they grow up without their father??? A bullet doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, between young and old, between innocent and guilty. Are you gun owners such excellent shots that you can guarantee that you'll never miss??? I don't think so!!!


Everyone thinks a gun will solve their problems, it doesn't solve them, it just makes them worse. Look at our military, one gun bigger than the next. Do any of you want to die because some jerk with a nuke, doesn't like our politics??? I don't know about any of you, but I've never met the president, I've never talked to him, and I'm not a member of his cabinet. I just want to live my life, as best as I can. I shouldn't have to die from something I had nothing to do with. I'm not saying that I don't support our troops, because I do support them. I'm just saying this whole war thing would be easier if Bush and Saddam just put their hands up like real men and fought it out. What about ALL of the hospitals and schools that are destroyed over there, is it any wonder they hate Americans??? If you blew up my school I'd hate you too. What about friendly fire??? How many casualties of war have "we" had because dumb asses didn't know the difference between our troops and theirs??? Maybe if they had to get up close and personal to "fight" their opponents they would have noticed the difference between us and them. Instead of shooting them from 100 yards away. I have to honest here I really don't care if ANY one replies to this post, because NONE of you are going to change my mind about this subject, I've lost more than any man should ever have to because of guns.

Sincerely,
KenpoDragon

 

[khadaji]

Have not posted in awhile..

Well in my state, Minnesota, it has just been passed a bill for more open legallity to carry concealed hand guns... (Its now leagal) An interesting measure considering the very low vilent crime rate here. Things have change, and in the end it makes everything redundent and/or stupid.

First off, all the malls, and many places of business have installed signs, reading "No hand guns, or other weapons permited with in this building" Even at the Mall of America (In my home town). Seening those signs i think may scare turrists away. All my freinds, and fammy have been informed at their places of work, that the guns, and weapons are not permented. On top of that collage campuses, and government buildings have given the very same ban. So I now wonder what is the point? You can only have your gun out on the streets, or at your own home. Half the year it to cold for you to be at risk from any type of assult out side or even your home (Sounds dumb, but is true) It all seems pointless.

On top of that, the penalty for bring your gun into one of these offlimit areas, is a $25 fine. You have to pay more for a parking ticket.

I do not know how this is suppose to make people feel safer, when any one in a crowd could be armed to kill at range.

 

[MartialArtist]

If you're carrying correctly, then there would be no problem. The reason you carry concealed is pretty obvious. You don't scare people, and if a criminal knew you had a gun, he would kill you before you would know he was there. You don't want people to know you're carrying. You don't carry to show off, you don't carry it so there would be a lump on your hip and people would ask about it. If you're doing it right, nobody would know.

"No guns" signs scaring tourists away? Hmmm... Okay, it might scare some people away. But unless there were metal detectors, I think that honest CCW carriers and criminals can just carry it inside anyway. The very same sign is even posted up at junior high/middle schools, doesn't seem to scare the students one bit.

But you do obey the law. If I was working at a post office, I wouldn't carry it inside.

Just carrying on the streets? The streets are where most of the incidents happen. You forgot that you can also leave your gun in the car and thus, making it easier to carry in permissible areas.

You want gun control? Move to California. Percentage wise in terms of population, California is very high up there in gun-related crimes, despite all the tight regulations and NO CCW compared with Arizona, Washington, or Florida.

 

[Zepp]

I'll agree that guns are just tools, but you've never heard of someone killing 5 of their coworkers with a screwdriver, have you? Some tools should only be allowed to be handled by those who can use them responsibly.

You wouldn't teach martial arts to someone you thought was mentally unbalanced, would you? Why should it be so easy for unbalanced people to buy tools that can kill at range?

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Zepp
I'll agree that guns are just tools, but you've never heard of someone killing 5 of their coworkers with a screwdriver, have you? Some tools should only be allowed to be handled by those who can use them responsibly.

You wouldn't teach martial arts to someone you thought was mentally unbalanced, would you? Why should it be so easy for unbalanced people to buy tools that can kill at range?

I agree, guns make things easier for both good and bad things, although a lot of the focus is on the bad things.

Most states if I remember require background checks. You can't buy guns over the internet (straight to home) and all that. However, before firearms, there were people who did kill multiple people just out of nowhere. Even in a culture where I would say was "more secure", instead of guns, there were swords and knives.

But guns won't do anything to their mental or emotional state. If they were in a state where they can shoot their coworkers, then they would probably go after them another way if guns were not around.

 

[Zepp]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
But guns won't do anything to their mental or emotional state. If they were in a state where they can shoot their coworkers, then they would probably go after them another way if guns were not around.

But would that "other way" make it as easy for them to kill as many people in as short an amount of time, from as far away as it would be with many legal firearms?

I'm inclined not to think so.

And I don't think the backround checks in most states are adequate either. A backround check doesn't tell you much about the mental state of someone who's never been in an institution. I'm not sure there's a better alternative, but I think there are things worth trying.

 

[Wmarden]

What other constitutional rights do you propose giving up?

 

[A.R.K.]

Well, time to open up a whole new door in this can of worms

There were some stats flying around cyber space not long ago. Don't know how accurate they were and I don't remember the exact numbers, but it does illustrate a good point in my opinon. It was somthing to the effect that in a certain year there were 100,000 physician related deaths. This means the Dr. prescribed the wrong meds, or the nurse mixed up the meds or there was an accident during surgury etc. In the same year there were 1400 gun related accidental deaths which meant that physicians were 9000 times more dangerous than hand guns.

What the public doesn't realize for example is that when a anti-gun group publishes stats such as 4000 people were killed with a handgun in such n such a year they are being both honest and dishonest at the same time. Usually they will include the a tradgedy involving a child. Now don't for one instant think I'm trivializing a child involved tradgedy. Far from it! One is to many! But these groups would lead everyone to think that all 4000 are these cases, they are not. A fraction are, the majority are police and law abiding citizens lawfully using a handgun in self defese. A little bad, alot good. But they try to put a negative spin on it to influence public opinon. And the media obliges them. Accidental shooting or some whack job going nuts...front page headline. Women defending herself successfully against would-be rapist....last page under the grocery coupons. Perhaps a bit of an exageration....but sometimes not far off.

And what about motor vehicles and drunk drivers? Drunks kill many times over more people than hand guns every year. True a car is not designed to injure someone...but getting behind the wheel impaired??? Is that not the same as firing of a gun in a crowded area? Whats the difference?

I'm just trying to throw some perspective on this issue. As a man who wears a badge and carries a gun on and off duty, I support the right of EVERY law abiding citizen of sound mind, and sound training to carry a weapon for lawful self defense. Can a firearm be misused? Of course it can. But so can a car. How many people try to run over, or run off the road someone thats pissed them off? Especially domestics. If firearms are outlawed, cars should be as well, and knives and screwdrivers, and chain saws and etc etc etc. All have been used in domestic disputes.

And a car will kill you much better than a little piece of lead!

Fact: States with CCW have lower crime rates than those that don't. Take a look at D.C. or Detroit or New York vs those that allow carry. Yes, there is still crime, but for example crime in Florida has dropped after CCW.

Remember, it is NOT the duty of the police to protect you. It is NOT in our charter to protect citizens. It is to enforce laws, keep the 'general' peace and protect public property. We are mainly reactionary due to sheer numbers. It is a privates citizens duty to protect their families and themselves.

Just a few thoughts. Let the games begin

 

[Chuck]

The reason I don't like guns is because it's JUST TOO EASY. I trained with pistols, rifles (M-14 and 16) and shotguns. Guns can be easy to use.

It should be a lot harder to kill some one, a lot more personal.

I don't oppose gun ownership, but I do oppose it being too easy. Ther should be strict controls on the sellers and manufacturers to keep guns out of criminal hands.

I have hunted and sport shooting is fun. But ownership, for me, is probably not wise. I never want to make killling too physically easy.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Chuck
The reason I don't like guns is because it's JUST TOO EASY. I trained with pistols, rifles (M-14 and 16) and shotguns. Guns can be easy to use.

It should be a lot harder to kill some one, a lot more personal.

I don't oppose gun ownership, but I do oppose it being too easy. Ther should be strict controls on the sellers and manufacturers to keep guns out of criminal hands.

I have hunted and sport shooting is fun. But ownership, for me, is probably not wise. I never want to make killling too physically easy.

Yeah, I agree it's easy. A bit too easy perhaps. This is both a good and a bad thing. I don't know about you, but if any one of my family members are in danger, and there's a guy breaking into my house, he'll have 00 buck aimed at his torso. If he tries to harm anyone, then I will shoot. I put the safety of others over my pride.

Bad thing is, you might hit a friendly.

Sometimes, shooting accurately IS hard, especially during urban combat where you either shoot on the run which is difficult, or when stationary while both you and the enemy have a place to duck for cover. Then there's the thing with civilians. Real life is not always like that, but the possiblity of hitting a friendly is there. If you miss, and you happen to have something like a 7.62mm FMJ or .50 cal, it might hit old Aunt Clara next door.

 

[Zepp]

Originally posted by Wmarden
What other constitutional rights do you propose giving up?

As Robin Williams once said: "It's not the right to bear arms that I'm worried about, it's the right to bear artillery that scares me."

If that group of 18th century lawyers that we call our founding fathers had forseen a future where people with automatic and semi-automatic weapons can hold their own against the police, or where children with such weapons could wipe out half their classmates in a couple bursts, I promise you, the word responsible and the phrase within reason would be part of the second amendmant.

Is it too late to add them?

 

[Wmarden]

If you don't like it change it, but as it were the constitution is meant to protect the rights of citizens to own millitary type weapons.

I suppose one should require a special permit to speak in public or to make posts on the internet as hate speach is dangerous too. We should regulate speech so as to prevent harm. It would be better that only certain people be allowed the right to speak in public because only certain people deserve that right.


Did you know that alot of gun control laws have their origins in racism? Do you know why people railed against saturday night specials in the early days of the last century. Because they were guns owned by poor people, and often black people at that. Or immigrants or other "undesirables". In fact the original phrase is a "Saturday night special in ******TOWN" Yep, gun control is racist. You can be damn sure the Klan did not want to meet armed "Negroes" when they would go about their nightly rounds of cross burnings and lynchings.

I would probably never want to own a highpoint or lorcin, but by God if I was poor(er) I would do whatever I could to provide for the defense of my loved ones.

And that is just one of many reasons gun control is doomed to fail.

The other prime reason is that criminals don't give a flying rats *** about laws. You think some mugger is going to worry that he has no legal way to own the gun he uses to mug you. Do you think that an armed robber would concern himself with the legal ramifications of using a sawed off shotgun to kill the store clerk because she is a bull dyke or black or latin, or whatever his favorite race to hate is. DO you think a drug dealer will have problems smuggling in a few rocket launchers in with his 2 ton shipment of coke? Criminals break laws, gun laws are the least of their worries.

If gun laws work, why is it the places with the strictest laws have the highest murder rates? Criminals like unarmed victims. Criminals like to strike where victims are disarmed. Look at school shooting incidents, gun laws disarm law abiding gun users and scumbags take advantage. In Israel this would not happen, teachers are encouraged to carry. And there have been many incidents of Israeli citizens taking out scumbag terrorists before they can blow up innocent people. Hardly makes the news here when it happens, the liberals would not like it if people started taking a little personal responsibility for their own safety. I can think of at least one school shooting at a college here in the us that the national media refused to report on the positive actions of two armed citizens.

I better stop before I get overheated, but I feel quite strongly about this. I do hope I have not offended anybody, but I refuse to compromise my values. I respect those of differing views, good people can disagree.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Zepp
As Robin Williams once said: "It's not the right to bear arms that I'm worried about, it's the right to bear artillery that scares me."

If that group of 18th century lawyers that we call our founding fathers had forseen a future where people with automatic and semi-automatic weapons can hold their own against the police, or where children with such weapons could wipe out half their classmates in a couple bursts, I promise you, the word responsible and the phrase within reason would be part of the second amendmant.

Is it too late to add them?

I do go against full automatic weapons (full-auto SMGs and assault rifles) but I have nothing against semi-automatics or semi-automatic versions of rifles. Just because one inserts a magazine?

 

[A.R.K.]

Wmarden,

I agree with you 100% :asian: People are responsible for their own safety. The Founding fathers realized this, that is why our Constitution reads the way it does. Once again, I support the right of every law abiding citizen to carry a firearm for lawful self-defense. My only stipulation would be that the have training with the weapon. That just makes sense.

I work with criminals, I can assure you that gun laws are not a very high consideration for the majority. And they like easy victims.

:asian:

 

[Wmarden]

Originally posted by A.R.K.



I work with criminals, I can assure you that gun laws are not a very high consideration for the majority. And they like easy victims.

I am going to work with criminals tommorow night, going to go out and serve warrants. I am a reserve deputy. Hoping to find a full time job in the field of working with criminals.

The police thing is what rekindled my interests in martial arts.

 

[A.R.K.]

12 years in a maximum security county correctional facility. It is an education to listen to these individuals from the perspective of knowing their tactics. It give one a better realization of what it takes and what is needed to prevent becoming one of their victims.

It would be most interesting to have an anti-gunner sit down and speak with some of these individuals face to face. I think their perceptions would be dramatically altered. A firearm is a tool, no more, no less.

It is a fact that 35% of rape attempts are successful. It is a fact that if you allow the attacker to take you from crime scene # 1 to crime scene # 2 your chances of survival drop to almost zero. It is a fact that rape attempts on an armed and aware female are only 1% successful.

It is the weakest animal in the herd a predator goes for. Don't act weak!

:asian: