Gun training

[Headhunter]

ive been at a Krav club for a few weeks now and today the instructor did an invite only session outside. It was me and 5 other guys the more regular guys there and we went to a secluded area and did some gun techniques with replica firearms. It was nice training outdoors and interesting to learn this stuff as its new and not been taught before. We used 2 types of gun a revolver and some kind of machine gun. Now yeah okay the machine guy...where I am it's extremely unlikely I'm getting held up by a machine gun but hey who cares it's fun to learn. The techniques were good and effective. It was everyone's first time with them so it was more technical this time. Only issue we had was having to hide the guns every time a dog walker came past since they look very real (instructors going to paint them pink so they don't look real) and we didn't fancy a visit from thr armed police haha.we had permission to be there we spoke to the guy who worked there and he cleared it anyway. But a good fun day of training

 

[jobo]

are you in the uk, I'm guessing so as you said armed police, rather than just police

if so possession of a realistic imitation fire arm in a public place is quite a serious crime, the fact their are dog walkers strongly suggests its a place the public has access to and so quite probably a public place, as is the car they were transported in, a quirk of the law mean a car is classed as a public place for such things, there's a legal get out for airsoft clubs and historic re enactments, but your not doing them, your doing a good impression of terrorists training in the woods, I bet some of you had camouflage pants on

I'm not sure painting them pink actually helps a lot, beyond making it less likely that the police may be called, but hey, terrorists might pain their guns pink to avoid detection, so I wouldn't count on it,, ,try not to be the one holding the gun when the police arive as if you avoid getting shot, you be the one in court

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I'm not sure painting them pink actually helps a lot, beyond making it less likely that the police may be called, but hey, terrorists might pain their guns pink to avoid detection, so I wouldn't count on it,, ,try not to be the one holding the gun when the police arive as if you avoid getting shot, you be the one in court

Unrealistic color waives the Realistic part of the RIF definition, hence why you don't need a "licence" to buy two tone air soft guns, the coloring to them waives the regulation of them. (only time you will see me spell colour without a U, thanks U.S langauge setting ) At least the realistic category regulation to them.

You might still get police called on you, but at least then you wont have a as serious call out to you etc and have a defence.

Addendum: dimensions and design of a RIF can waive the realistic definition to it also. For example if you have a tiny model of a AK its clearly too small to be a actual firearm. or if you have a model of the Pulse rifle from aliens, since such a thing doesn't exist IRL. At least these might be defensible in court.

Was this disarm techniques?

I was personally looking at a MCQC thing i found on the British combat associates events calendar and the level 2 "instructors" course is meant to be the weapons component to the system they teach.

Looking at vids etc, it looks like they run through combative use of a pistol using fakes. Not seen a vid on the knife component yet, will have to look later. (irreverent to your school i know but im trying to start conversation. )

 

[Dirty Dog]

Lots of real guns are different colors, including pink.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Lots of real guns are different colors, including pink.

It might provide a defence in court, at least i wont scream gun if i see it being pink or something like that. (at least until i start getting shot at)

Isn't there some mixed opinion in dying your gun vibrant colours anyway? Thats what a lot of people use to mark toys or training firearms to distinguish from live ones.

 

[CB Jones]

Isn't there some mixed opinion in dying your gun vibrant colours anyway? Thats what a lot of people use to mark toys or training firearms to distinguish from live ones.

Nope....manufacturers offer colored guns....very popular with a lot of female shooters.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It might provide a defence in court, at least i wont scream gun if i see it being pink or something like that. (at least until i start getting shot at)

Isn't there some mixed opinion in dying your gun vibrant colours anyway? Thats what a lot of people use to mark toys or training firearms to distinguish from live ones.

There's mixed opinions on pretty much everything.
A lot of manufacturers of 'toy' guns do things like paint the muzzle orange or some such.
If there's an assumption that a pink gun isn't a real gun, then I predict a lot of bad guys will be ceracoating their guns.

I do think that doing gun training in a public area is a foolish thing to do, regardless of the color of the "gun" being used. That's just asking for trouble.

 

[Headhunter]

are you in the uk, I'm guessing so as you said armed police, rather than just police

if so possession of a realistic imitation fire arm in a public place is quite a serious crime, the fact their are dog walkers strongly suggests its a place the public has access to and so quite probably a public place, as is the car they were transported in, a quirk of the law mean a car is classed as a public place for such things, there's a legal get out for airsoft clubs and historic re enactments, but your not doing them, your doing a good impression of terrorists training in the woods, I bet some of you had camouflage pants on

I'm not sure painting them pink actually helps a lot, beyond making it less likely that the police may be called, but hey, terrorists might pain their guns pink to avoid detection, so I wouldn't count on it,, ,try not to be the one holding the gun when the police arive as if you avoid getting shot, you be the one in court

Nope no where near UK and everything was legal as all was checked before hand simply being careful to avoid any unnecessary dram the instructor checked the local laws and I checked them as well for good measure plus had 2 police officers in the group who said there was no issue with it

 

[Headhunter]

Also actually just found this out. The guy In charge had spoken to the police already or whoever the relevant authority was and told them what we were doing and even showed him what we'd be using and got permission for it and was told it was fine and people regularly use that area for even firing real weapons as training so there we go

 

[jobo]

Unrealistic color waives the Realistic part of the RIF definition, hence why you don't need a "licence" to buy two tone air soft guns, the coloring to them waives the regulation of them. (only time you will see me spell colour without a U, thanks U.S langauge setting ) At least the realistic category regulation to them.

You might still get police called on you, but at least then you wont have a as serious call out to you etc and have a defence.

Addendum: dimensions and design of a RIF can waive the realistic definition to it also. For example if you have a tiny model of a AK its clearly too small to be a actual firearm. or if you have a model of the Pulse rifle from aliens, since such a thing doesn't exist IRL. At least these might be defensible in court.

Was this disarm techniques?

I was personally looking at a MCQC thing i found on the British combat associates events calendar and the level 2 "instructors" course is meant to be the weapons component to the system they teach.

Looking at vids etc, it looks like they run through combative use of a pistol using fakes. Not seen a vid on the knife component yet, will have to look later. (irreverent to your school i know but im trying to start conversation. )

well he isn't in the uk, so it's an academic point, but the law is as clear as mud

selling a realistic fire arm, airsoft or otherwise is restricted to the purchaser being a member of some authorised organisation, and for that purpose a pink gun seems to get round the place for purchases
however it's far from clear if it being pink allows you to possess it in a public place ,

the 1967 act only refers to IMITATION fire arms and not realistic imitation fire arms, to that end, if any member of the public or the police think MIGHT just be a real gun,then it may be viewed by the police and the courts as a imitation fire arm, then you may very well be arrested at gun point and charged, you may or may not be convicted

here's a link to a KM court case, in this case the gun wasn't pink, it was however not very realistic rubber he was acquitted but only after months of heart ache and he could just as easily been convicted,

Imitation firearms and the Law: a case study | Criminal Solicitors - BSB,
this study places emphasis on how close they came to being shot

there was also the case recently when some old guy was tried and aquited for pulling a water pistol out in a bar,,

I wouldn't walk round the park with an otherwise realistic gun that happened to be pink, I really wouldnt

I'd also remind you of the case from I think, the 1960s where a chap was shot dead for carrying a table leg, which you have to admit isn't that realistic a fire arm and the more recent case where the police tazered a blind man after mistaking his white stick for a Samari sword, no I wouldn't be walking around with a pink machine gun

 

[Headhunter]

well he isn't in the uk, so it's an academic point, but the law is as clear as mud

selling a realistic fire arm, airsoft or otherwise is restricted to the purchaser being a member of some authorised organisation, and for that purpose a pink gun seems to get round the place for purchases
however it's far from clear if it being pink allows you to possess it in a public place ,

the 1967 act only refers to IMITATION fire arms and not realistic imitation fire arms, to that end, if any member of the public or the police think MIGHT just be a real gun,then it may be viewed by the police and the courts as a imitation fire arm, then you may very well be arrested at gun point and charged, you may or may not be convicted

here's a link to a KM court case, in this case the gun wasn't pink, it was however not very realistic rubber he was acquitted but only after months of heart ache and he could just as easily been convicted,

Imitation firearms and the Law: a case study | Criminal Solicitors - BSB,
this study places emphasis on how close they came to being shot

there was also the case recently when some old guy was tried and aquited for pulling a water pistol out in a bar,,

I wouldn't walk round the park with an otherwise realistic gun that happened to be pink, I really wouldnt

I'd also remind you of the case from I think, the 1960s where a chap was shot dead for carrying a table leg, which you have to admit isn't that realistic a fire arm and the more recent case where the police tazered a blind man after mistaking his white stick for a Samari sword, no I wouldn't be walking around with a pink machine gun

Well as I said I'm not in the UK and everything was legally cleared I just used those terms as force of habit

 

[skribs]

You can buy real guns in different colors, and you can buy fake guns in "black". If they can't be legally sold that way, there are easy ways to make a real gun look like a toy, or to make a fake gun look real. Trying to legislate it one way or another is just silly.

@Headhunter you should use nerf guns and see if you can do the disarm without getting shot.

 

[wab25]

You should really do this stuff either inside, out of view of the public, or on private property, out of view of the public. All it takes is one well meaning bystander to not understand what he is looking at, to call in an active shooter in progress, armed robbery in progress, kidnapping in progress... Even though the local police chief gave the ok, that doesn't mean that every 911 operator got the message.

Large scale police response to man with umbrella:
Police called after umbrella was mistaken for gun at Campus Plaza in Hadley

Grocery Store evacuated, 10 police respond to man with umbrella:
Umbrella mistaken for rifle at Publix on Merritt Island, police say

Mall evacuated, massive police response and SWAT team called for man with umbrella:
Man with umbrella causes rifle scare at Burlington Mall

There could be injuries to people evacuating, there could be injuries to police responding (we had a cop die in a motor cycle accident responding to call for assistance from another officer), there could be accidents as police and SWAT teams are trying to respond to what they were told they were responding to, as quickly as possible. It also means that there are a lot of resources tied up here, instead of being available for other, real events going on. (note that many of these took hours to sort out) The best bet is to do this stuff privately.

(and don't use nerf guns... at best, they will give you a very false sense of security about your skills. You can get an airsoft gun and glasses for the same price and much better training)

 

[Headhunter]

You should really do this stuff either inside, out of view of the public, or on private property, out of view of the public. All it takes is one well meaning bystander to not understand what he is looking at, to call in an active shooter in progress, armed robbery in progress, kidnapping in progress... Even though the local police chief gave the ok, that doesn't mean that every 911 operator got the message.

Large scale police response to man with umbrella:
Police called after umbrella was mistaken for gun at Campus Plaza in Hadley

Grocery Store evacuated, 10 police respond to man with umbrella:
Umbrella mistaken for rifle at Publix on Merritt Island, police say

Mall evacuated, massive police response and SWAT team called for man with umbrella:
Man with umbrella causes rifle scare at Burlington Mall

There could be injuries to people evacuating, there could be injuries to police responding (we had a cop die in a motor cycle accident responding to call for assistance from another officer), there could be accidents as police and SWAT teams are trying to respond to what they were told they were responding to, as quickly as possible. It also means that there are a lot of resources tied up here, instead of being available for other, real events going on. (note that many of these took hours to sort out) The best bet is to do this stuff privately.

(and don't use nerf guns... at best, they will give you a very false sense of security about your skills. You can get an airsoft gun and glasses for the same price and much better training)

Large scale evacuation?.....we were in a small grass area where we saw a grand total of 3 people in 2 hours so I doubt there'd be huge evacuations

 

[wab25]

Large scale evacuation?.....we were in a small grass area where we saw a grand total of 3 people in 2 hours so I doubt there'd be huge evacuations

Well, here is what I had to go on before responding:

Only issue we had was having to hide the guns every time a dog walker came past

Since you didn't note the frequency or number of dog walkers you saw... I can't know how many there were. I also don't know where your secluded area is, other than to know other people were around. (you stated that you had to hide your guns more than once) If there is a school anywhere around there, there very well could be a lock down, depending on the words used by the concerned citizen calling it in.

My whole point was that we don't know what the ordinary citizen walking by is going to see. There is no way we can know. I posted 3 different incidences of people carrying umbrellas. They had know way of knowing that some concerned citizen would see that as a gun, call it in and get a SWAT team called out. If you are seen by the ordinary citizen, holding something that actually looks like a gun, in a way that looks like you are using a gun, with other people acting like they are fighting back... Remember, some of these citizens called in people with umbrellas, thinking they had shot guns or assault rifles.

Depending on what the citizen thinks he sees, and the words he uses to the 911 operator you could get any response, from a very bored cop looking to see what kids are messing around, to a full on SWAT response, with a perimeter made and schools locked down. (I can't know what is in that area, you haven't told us where it was... but here if a report of a gun incident is made within a few miles of a school, lock downs occur.) There have been many accidents where police or other first responders are rushing to a scene and get in traffic accidents. This officer was responding to a car crash:
Motorcycle officer dies from crash injuries

I guess a few people disagree with my concern about what an ordinary citizen might see and call in, and the response you may or may not get. If you disagree, thats fine by me, I am not training with you. Continue to train your gun arts in public places, it won't bother me. If it were me, I would train my weapon arts in a private place, so as not to have to worry about what other people see and call in. But thats just me.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You can buy real guns in different colors, and you can buy fake guns in "black". If they can't be legally sold that way, there are easy ways to make a real gun look like a toy, or to make a fake gun look real. Trying to legislate it one way or another is just silly.

@Headhunter you should use nerf guns and see if you can do the disarm without getting shot.

Airsoft guns work better.

 

[skribs]

Airsoft guns work better.

My issue is that even with safety goggles, at point-blank range those pellets can be nasty.

 

[Headhunter]

Well, here is what I had to go on before responding:
Since you didn't note the frequency or number of dog walkers you saw... I can't know how many there were. I also don't know where your secluded area is, other than to know other people were around. (you stated that you had to hide your guns more than once) If there is a school anywhere around there, there very well could be a lock down, depending on the words used by the concerned citizen calling it in.

My whole point was that we don't know what the ordinary citizen walking by is going to see. There is no way we can know. I posted 3 different incidences of people carrying umbrellas. They had know way of knowing that some concerned citizen would see that as a gun, call it in and get a SWAT team called out. If you are seen by the ordinary citizen, holding something that actually looks like a gun, in a way that looks like you are using a gun, with other people acting like they are fighting back... Remember, some of these citizens called in people with umbrellas, thinking they had shot guns or assault rifles.

Depending on what the citizen thinks he sees, and the words he uses to the 911 operator you could get any response, from a very bored cop looking to see what kids are messing around, to a full on SWAT response, with a perimeter made and schools locked down. (I can't know what is in that area, you haven't told us where it was... but here if a report of a gun incident is made within a few miles of a school, lock downs occur.) There have been many accidents where police or other first responders are rushing to a scene and get in traffic accidents. This officer was responding to a car crash:
Motorcycle officer dies from crash injuries

I guess a few people disagree with my concern about what an ordinary citizen might see and call in, and the response you may or may not get. If you disagree, thats fine by me, I am not training with you. Continue to train your gun arts in public places, it won't bother me. If it were me, I would train my weapon arts in a private place, so as not to have to worry about what other people see and call in. But thats just me.

Jeez where on earth did you get a school from....you seem to be making up your own stories as you go along here....what're you on about gun arts....it's Krav Maga not a gun art......seriously? Your talking about the risks of people dying in car accidents from the police getting there....anyway we didn't have to hide them as I said we had complete full permission and there was no law against what was happening but we just hid it out of common courtesy....the whole point is it wasn't a proper public place it was a very secluded place where no traffic was around and only a very small number of people would even think of going anywhere near that area....maybe you should cut out the assumptions and stick with facts just saying

 

[drop bear]

Airsoft guns work better.

They make pretty legitimate nerf these days.

There is a whole competition market.

 

[JR 137]

Airsoft guns work better.

I miss that guy.